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[Politics] Topic: Battleground America - One nation, under the gun |
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DiscoD69 |
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#51 Posted: 4/25/2012 4:20:46 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:
Flooding the country with firearms and high powered weapons just gives many more people that much more of an opportunity to do more severe damage than there otherwise would be.
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Doesn't matter. The bad guys are still going to do bad things. I'd prefer that the good guys have an opportunity to defend themselves.
And as for the deep-seated issues here, let's face it, they will never be solved. Social media....video games....TV...kids/people are being bombarded by stimuli more and more every day. I have a guy at work who has his work computer, his lap-top, his blackberry, his I-Pad and his regular phone....all up and running every day. Are you kidding me? Kids these days have no chance. Economic issues.....more and more foods containing hormones.
This stuff is never going to be undone. I'll take my chances as a responsible gun owner. "When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force."
Exactly. There are many issues and people will do bad things.
....So why are we arming everybody?  
Hello!? That's the whole point. There are issues in most communities in various countries, and if we compare gun crime rates, and murder rates in countries with relaxed gun laws & high rates of civilian gun ownership to countries with strict gun laws, what do we find?
Canada and the USA are very similar sociologically speaking, yet we have strict gun laws while you guys have your firearm freedom paradise, so who has the higher rates of gun violence?
We can talk about hypotheticals or we can analyze the evidence the real world provides us. If everybody was perfect we could live next to bowslit and have a bazooka... But we don't live in right wing disney land, we live in reality, where people are getting killed by all the stupid people with guns. You guys can turn a blind eye to reality and talk about the good ol' days of 1776, but I've even offered you a reason to think hard about what the second amendment really means, because your interpretation is removed from history according to this article, which nobody has cared to dispute.
I see people complaining about the source, without disputing the content. We know what that means.
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rick3117 |
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#52 Posted: 4/25/2012 5:28:58 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH: Thank you and what part of what I said was weird? Seems to me that all forms of any kind of spirituality are weird.
Just do not know many with those views. |
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rick3117 |
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#53 Posted: 4/25/2012 5:32:08 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:
Exactly. There are many issues and people will do bad things.
....So why are we arming everybody?  
Hello!? That's the whole point. There are issues in most communities in various countries, and if we compare gun crime rates, and murder rates in countries with relaxed gun laws & high rates of civilian gun ownership to countries with strict gun laws, what do we find?
Canada and the USA are very similar sociologically speaking, yet we have strict gun laws while you guys have your firearm freedom paradise, so who has the higher rates of gun violence?
We can talk about hypotheticals or we can analyze the evidence the real world provides us. If everybody was perfect we could live next to bowslit and have a bazooka... But we don't live in right wing disney land, we live in reality, where people are getting killed by all the stupid people with guns. You guys can turn a blind eye to reality and talk about the good ol' days of 1776, but I've even offered you a reason to think hard about what the second amendment really means, because your interpretation is removed from history according to this article, which nobody has cared to dispute.
I see people complaining about the source, without disputing the content. We know what that means.
Woah woah woah bud. Pump the brakes right there.
The USA and Canada are nothing NOTHING alike.
Our country was founded on the ideal that there was consent of the governed, natural law and the right to revolt.
Your country was founded on the idea that the queen of England was too busy to darn with Canada and let you essentially run yourselves. You are nothing more than a colony.
Sociologically you can not get any further from similar in my opinion. |
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rick3117 |
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#54 Posted: 4/25/2012 5:35:06 PM Disco, the second amendment means that if the USA ever devolves into tyranny those who have sworn to uphold the Constitution will use their private weapons to fight the government. The second amendment is nothing more than a final check on govt. and a constitutional right based in the natural rights, and right to revolt that Made our country.
Even a background check is unconstitutional. |
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glenndef62 |
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#55 Posted: 4/25/2012 5:50:42 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117: Disco, the second amendment means that if the USA ever devolves into tyranny those who have sworn to uphold the Constitution will use their private weapons to fight the government.
The second amendment is nothing more than a final check on govt.
and a constitutional right based in the natural rights, and right to revolt that Made our country.
Even a background check is unconstitutional.

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bowlslit |
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#56 Posted: 4/25/2012 5:59:30 PM Why would a guy from Canada be so interested in changing laws in a different country where he has no dog in the fight?
Shouldn't the people that have the dog in the fight be conserned about their own country's laws?
We have the uberest gun laws in the world and I for one feel safe when I venture from my home and live my daily life. If I didn't then I would move to a place where I do.
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djbrow |
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#57 Posted: 4/25/2012 8:50:15 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:
Even a background check is unconstitutional.
It is this silly extreme that does gun advocates a disservice.
This is where I bring up restrictions on felons, the mentally ill, and those underage. Are they similarly unconstitutional, or are there exceptions?
If the former, this is where one uses the "I'll be armed too," and I'll remind that your child won't be when one of the above decides to use him for target practice one day.
If the latter, then there is agreement that restrictions do exist. |
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rooster010 |
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#58 Posted: 4/25/2012 8:54:12 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:
Woah woah woah bud. Pump the brakes right there.
The USA and Canada are nothing NOTHING alike.
Our country was founded on the ideal that there was consent of the governed, natural law and the right to revolt.
Your country was founded on the idea that the queen of England was too busy to darn with Canada and let you essentially run yourselves. You are nothing more than a colony.
Sociologically you can not get any further from similar in my opinion. history is a wonderful thing |
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rooster010 |
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#59 Posted: 4/25/2012 8:57:35 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:
Woah woah woah bud. Pump the brakes right there.
The USA and Canada are nothing NOTHING alike.
Our country was founded on the ideal that there was consent of the governed, natural law and the right to revolt.
Your country was founded on the idea that the queen of England was too busy to darn with Canada and let you essentially run yourselves. You are nothing more than a colony.
Sociologically you can not get any further from similar in my opinion.
and the reason we have Lady Liberty on our silver dollar, not the queen of england
although we should have a picture of the federal reserve on all of it |
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rick3117 |
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#60 Posted: 4/25/2012 9:04:34 PM I am playing devil's advocate. I know that in our nanny state we will never have an absolute right to anything, especially when concerning the 2nd amendment.
For the past few years, I have been back and forth between libertarian, and Republican Ideology, and I have come to the conclusion that I do not have much in common with any party, as they exist today.
The only thing that I believe is that people need to draw a line in the sand. No more sitting idly by as politicians tag team us from the right and left taking away our rights. Obama was handed the baton by Bush, and he has outdone himself degrading our Republic, eroded our civil liberties, and spat on the Constitution (like when he went to war in Libya for the UN, at the behest of the Arab League). We do not have the luxury of picking the better of the two evils. Mitt Romney will move the Baton further down the line, and Obama unhindered by elections will turn our country into a disaster.
When the Chinese government is taking tips on how to write legislation to take away due process, and legitimize "dissapearing" and murdering citizens, I think it is time to take a good long hard look at who is in power.
Point is, I would be a goddamned hypocrite if I were to rail against the unconstitutionality of our current president, and support anything that even resembles further gun control, or outright confiscation. |
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rick3117 |
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#61 Posted: 4/25/2012 9:05:13 PM ^ was in response to DJ if it was not obvious.  |
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selkooth |
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#62 Posted: 4/26/2012 5:53:14 AM Re Disco: If your second amendment standpoint emerges from free thought, not fixed to an established approach of envisage and delivery, in quest of a monotony in agreeable political left-wing discourse, why make use of the Keynesian means of arriving at a conclusion, constructing a loose distortion of your opposition and then obliterating that compound to promote the argument; the second amendment is the generator of all gun-related pathologies.
Lawlessness not only occurs daily inside America, it extends to war zones, where U.S. military teach us its gladiatorial combat blood-shedding instruments are employed to safeguard America and its freedoms. The Dept of Defence invests in programs designed to target, bait and hook the juvenile. Unequivocal, the rising generation have been surrendered to military recruiters to harvest a supply of substitute soldiers, guiding potential new recruits with promises that come from enlisting. Govt recruiters provide schools with T.V equipment contracts and entice students with obligatory messages in the likeness of military recruitment pitches that are intertwined between the educational programs. Dept of Defence marketing strategies stretch beyond schools; it has backed and sponsored the creation of popular mainstream military-style video games, which assists youth susceptibility to impetuous behaviour, becoming desensitized and possibly even excited by such blood thirsty, sometimes, criminal acts. Is it not Washington, the guardian of the free-world, who sponsors regimes in the likeness of the Kingdom of Bahrain, which has been slaughtering its own citizenry, more damaging to adolescent behavior with strategic penetration into the classroom and recreational activities of America’s youth, than the second amendment?
From violent Hollywood movies to rebel stars of gangster rap, American culture and govt glorification of war have influenced the captive American audience far superior than the freedoms pertaining to the second amendment. America has a culture problem; negative firearm behavior is somewhat a product of the environment that has been bestowed upon the American youth. Ever played the video game, “Grand Theft Auto” or listened to Tupac Shakur.
Jumping subjects, Disco,
In 08, former POTUS, Jimmy Carter, touched down in Israel as a precursor to his commencement of a Mid East tour, taking him to countries such as Egypt, Syria and Palestine, meeting political leaders like Mubarak and Bashar al-Assad. Carter took the strategist approach that Hamas needed to be involved in peace talks between Israel and Palestine, meeting with Hamas superiors in Egypt and other leaders later in Syria. This placed Carter in contempt of Washington’s foreign policy, and MSM think-tanks diminished the tour as lacking quality, distorting the facts to oppose a democratically elected Hamas govt in Gaza. Meanwhile, Washington and Israel were impeding Palestine from pecuniary gain in any transaction from a gas field, geographically positioned in its waters, worth multi-billions. Palestine was in the process of arranging a deal to sell gas to Egypt, but alternately through pressure, was pursued to direct communications towards Israel for any potential financial endowment for its resources. But consequently after Hamas won the election, concerns of them profiting from any deal produced a lengthy deadlock in negotiations. Two or three months prior to Carter’s tour of the Mid East, a European power promulgated that it would no longer continue talks with Israel and was planning to readdress Egypt at the negotiation-table. Israel reacted by enlarging its sanctions, ceasing shipments completely and enlarging its military campaign. This continued through to the 2011 Egyptian uprising, separation of South Sudan, Syrian rebellion, and eventual Lebanese intervention to come, linked entirely to resource hegemony for the control of African and Mid East energy supplies. Your Tahrir protests were engineered by outside forces and played upon by indigenous ringleaders and foreign powers, that have seen the removal of Egyptian liberalizing programs. |
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DiscoD69 |
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#63 Posted: 4/26/2012 11:47:24 AM QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:
Woah woah woah bud. Pump the brakes right there.
The USA and Canada are nothing NOTHING alike.
Our country was founded on the ideal that there was consent of the governed, natural law and the right to revolt.
Your country was founded on the idea that the queen of England was too busy to darn with Canada and let you essentially run yourselves. You are nothing more than a colony.
Sociologically you can not get any further from similar in my opinion.
This response does not necessarily have any bearing on my argument. Where we came from is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about human behaviour and the common similarities that our societies share. I'm talking about the issues people are facing today in modern North American society, and how they react. How they deal with the struggle.
Nothing in common? Are you kidding me? We have (arguably) more in common with each other than any other two western countries in the world. We share the world's longest peaceful border, speak the same language, trade the most with each other/depend the most on each other than any other of our trade partners. I have family in the USA just as many Americans have family in Canada. We can pass relatively freely between our two countries. We shop at the same garbage stores, watch the same garbage on TV and listen to the same garbage music. GENERALLY speaking, the culture is the same.
To get back to my point, people in Canada and the US face largely the same struggles, and the same challenges in everyday life, whether it's unemployment, addictions, mental health or a variety of other issues people are struggling with on both sides of the border. To ignore this is nothing more than denial. Somebody struggling in New York working a low paying job to make ends meet face largely the same struggles as somebody living in Toronto under the same circumstances. That is my point.
Yet how much more likely is the person in NY affected by gun crime compared to the person in Toronto? How much more prevalent is gun crime in a major American city than a Canadian city just a couple of hours away? |
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DiscoD69 |
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#64 Posted: 4/26/2012 11:54:17 AM QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:
Why would a guy from Canada be so interested in changing laws in a different country where he has no dog in the fight?
Shouldn't the people that have the dog in the fight be conserned about their own country's laws?
We have the uberest gun laws in the world and I for one feel safe when I venture from my home and live my daily life. If I didn't then I would move to a place where I do.
I'm really getting tired of responding to such frivolous posts, but maybe you can tell me what the percentage is of guns that ended up being used to commit a crime in Canada that were manufactured and/or sold in the USA?
I have no reason to justify my concern here, but in case you feel you need one, feel free to use the answer to that question.
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AcerRubrum |
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#65 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:04:03 PM I'm really getting tired of responding to such frivolous posts, but maybe you can tell me what the percentage is of guns that ended up being used to commit a crime in Canada that were manufactured and/or sold in the USA?
even if 100% ... your point?
how about...if no one in the USA ever produced or made a weapon...then I guess NO ONE would ever own one right?!
outlaw all handguns therefore there would be no hand guns ...outlaw all guns...there will be no guns .....
understand this.... mankind is NOT KIND.... man kills... period
like drugs....you are NOT going to get rid of guns because YOU want them to go away.....or even if you outlaw them!
just sayin
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be easy |
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#66 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:09:00 PM i agree with disco
we should ban guns
to enforce this, we just need to find those altruistic holier than me police staters, and arm them all the way up, then they can roll deep door to door and force people at gunpoint to turnover their guns
then, and only then, will we all be truly safe 
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14daroad |
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#67 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:27:19 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:
I'm really getting tired of responding to such frivolous posts, but maybe you can tell me what the percentage is of guns that ended up being used to commit a crime in Canada that were manufactured and/or sold in the USA?
I have no reason to justify my concern here, but in case you feel you need one, feel free to use the answer to that question.
It is an irrelevant question since the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with the manufacture of guns. |
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14daroad |
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#68 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:29:24 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:
I'm really getting tired of responding to such frivolous posts, but maybe you can tell me what the percentage is of guns that ended up being used to commit a crime in Canada that were manufactured and/or sold in the USA?
I have no reason to justify my concern here, but in case you feel you need one, feel free to use the answer to that question.
Actually, you've never responded to such a question.
Anyway, it is already illegal for someone from Canada to purchas a firearm in America. It is already illegal for me to sell a Canadian my handgun.
Your "concern" about American gun laws has no basis in reality and is in fact formed by ignorance.
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MoneySRH |
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#69 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:29:37 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by selkooth:
From violent Hollywood movies to rebel stars of gangster rap, American culture and govt glorification of war have influenced the captive American audience far superior than the freedoms pertaining to the second amendment. America has a culture problem; negative firearm behavior is somewhat a product of the environment that has been bestowed upon the American youth. Ever played the video game, “Grand Theft Auto” or listened to Tupac Shakur. When will people realize that it's a Republican and Democrat problem and not a gun problem. The education system has been destroyed by both parties. Democrat and Republican parents suck at parenting and suck at running the education system. We are becoming the dumbest country on earth because of both parties. Can R's and D's run the education system and raise their kids properly? NO THEY CAN'T!
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AcerRubrum |
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#70 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:41:52 PM 
don't tell that to big government.....THEY know what is best to teach your children well! Throw more money and more rules at the situation. Give the teachers more money and make the classrooms smaller and everyone will get THE education the government says you deserve!
seriously.... is education better now than in 1970 in the USA because of DOE?
The government can do very little WELL.... they should stick to national defense and TRY to do that better first and foremost!
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DiscoD69 |
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#71 Posted: 4/26/2012 12:55:54 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by AcerRubrum: I'm really getting tired of responding to such frivolous posts, but maybe you can tell me what the percentage is of guns that ended up being used to commit a crime in Canada that were manufactured and/or sold in the USA?
even if 100% ... your point?
My point is, that if it was '0' - I probably wouldn't be concerned with this at all.
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DiscoD69 |
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#72 Posted: 4/26/2012 1:00:35 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by AcerRubrum:
how about...if no one in the USA ever produced or made a weapon...then I guess NO ONE would ever own one right?!
outlaw all handguns therefore there would be no hand guns ...outlaw all guns...there will be no guns .....
understand this.... mankind is NOT KIND.... man kills... period
No. I didn't say that, I actually said gun laws have basically no bearing on a person's decision to commit a crime like murder. I also never said they would disappear off the face of the earth if outlawed.
However, if there were no guns produced and distributed, there would be way way way less gun crime.  |
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DiscoD69 |
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#73 Posted: 4/26/2012 1:04:52 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:
This response does not necessarily have any bearing on my argument. Where we came from is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about human behaviour and the common similarities that our societies share. I'm talking about the issues people are facing today in modern North American society, and how they react. How they deal with the struggle.
Nothing in common? Are you kidding me? We have (arguably) more in common with each other than any other two western countries in the world. We share the world's longest peaceful border, speak the same language, trade the most with each other/depend the most on each other than any other of our trade partners. I have family in the USA just as many Americans have family in Canada. We can pass relatively freely between our two countries. We shop at the same garbage stores, watch the same garbage on TV and listen to the same garbage music. GENERALLY speaking, the culture is the same.
To get back to my point, people in Canada and the US face largely the same struggles, and the same challenges in everyday life, whether it's unemployment, addictions, mental health or a variety of other issues people are struggling with on both sides of the border. To ignore this is nothing more than denial. Somebody struggling in New York working a low paying job to make ends meet face largely the same struggles as somebody living in Toronto under the same circumstances. That is my point.
Yet how much more likely is the person in NY affected by gun crime compared to the person in Toronto? How much more prevalent is gun crime in a major American city than a Canadian city just a couple of hours away?
Bump for sanity  |
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AcerRubrum |
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#74 Posted: 4/26/2012 1:17:59 PM I actually said gun laws have basically no bearing on a person's decision to commit a crime like murder.

understand what you are saying.....
However, if there were no guns produced and distributed, there would be way way way less gun crime. agree!!!
YES.... and if the sun only shined one day a week we would have less food too!
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HutchEmAll |
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#75 Posted: 4/26/2012 2:27:41 PM It's really quite simple. If I'm in the back of a convenience store and someone comes in and robs it at gun point and I run into the back and huddle in a corner.
Would you rather be huddling in a corner with a loaded gun hoping the guy leaves on his own, but knowing you have a chance to defend yourself if necessary or would you prefer to pray that the guy doesn't come into the back room?
Easy answer. More guns in RESPONSIBLE hands means less crime. |
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