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Author: [Politics] Topic: If you don't like it here, why don't you just leave?
djbrow
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#51
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:42:06 AM
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Originally Posted by be easy:



i'll ask that you think about this a little further, i mean , c'mon, you're a lawyer, and your guys whole deal depends upon the premise that we'd rather see 100 guilty men walk free, than one innocent man go unjustly punished. You cannot envision a scenario, where this could be a bad thing? did you even try, or were you just looking to justify any action by the state?

There is a huge distinction between one's right to travel internationally/move internationally being restricted based on a possible tax debt and a person going to prison for a crime they didn't commit.

I have no doubt that this could be used improperly, just as any law and restriction can. That is why I also believe in checks and balances, which exist in one's ability to appeal any administrative findings.

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#52
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:45:23 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:

My point is that you cannot possibly think you have it WORSE in the USA than the people of Egypt had it during the Mubarak era.

The likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change and reforms is logically much much much greater in the USA under Obama etc. than in the Middle East in countries like Egypt with decades old dictatorships.

Are you serious with this crap?  Why do you lefties always compare what you deem to be an appropriate level of freedom for the USA, with that of other garbage stain countries that have been mired in dictatorial funks for centuries? Everything is relative, BUT the desired level of freedom for those of us born free and wish to remain that way, shouldn't be relative to 2012 North Korea, rather 1780 USA


I'm thankful for the wise people in this forum who turned me onto Twitter. The only 'occupy' feed I follow is #OCCUPY CONGRESS (@OCongress), because that's the only one that matters if you want to achieve reform through peaceful protest.

we agree on much, my northern friend, however, your assumption that peaceful protest is an option at this point, is dangerous. Look what we are up against! A Leviathan of a police state, armed to the teeth and with zero regard for the sanctity of freedom nor the prosperity of their fellow man. The state has one goal, and that is self-preservation at ANY AND ALL COSTS. What has changed since the days of Cheney and Bush 

Yes. This is my opinion: The likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change and reforms is logically much much much greater in the USA under Obama etc. than in the Middle East in countries like Egypt with decades old dictatorships.

Again, everything you say in this post to justify an armed uprising can be applied to the Egypt example.

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#53
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:47:34 AM
have you ever been to egypt? i find it hard to draw a comparison to the situation of the people of egypt and that of us Americans, but that's just me. They weren't/aren't fighting against the mightiest military government complex that the world has ever seen
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#54
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:50:36 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

There is a huge distinction between one's right to travel internationally/move internationally being restricted based on a possible tax debt and a person going to prison for a crime they didn't commit.

I have no doubt that this could be used improperly, just as any law and restriction can. That is why I also believe in checks and balances, which exist in one's ability to appeal any administrative findings.



I believe that every law is made for a reason, to benefit those that make the laws, at the price of those of us that are forced to labor to support their way of life

a much more fitting comparison to the situation in Egypt, where the Kings imprison the serfs and force them to labor for their masters

If an American wants to leave the country, by all means, some horse garbage fed income tax lien is by no means justification to make said laborer, property of the state. What if the person is infirmed, and doesn't have any money or assets, and their only chance of survival is to make it up to Canada to be taken care of by their family that has seeken refuse from the State up in the great white north? You'd rather see the IRS take him at gun point and imprison the guy?
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#55
Posted: 4/18/2012 10:53:38 AM
Money - I promise I'm not being a stubborn hopeless romantic. I'd be far less likely to believe in the validity of this approach had we not seen it work in the Middle East.


Tell me this, would there be more outrage and demands for accountability if Bush or Obama ordered officers to use live rounds, killing mass amounts of protestors than there would be if a Mubarak or Assad ordered the same? 

Hard to imagine it is even debatable. 
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#56
Posted: 4/18/2012 11:07:13 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:

have you ever been to egypt? i find it hard to draw a comparison to the situation of the people of egypt and that of us Americans, but that's just me. They weren't/aren't fighting against the mightiest military government complex that the world has ever seen

That's one opinion.

I actually said I think the likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change in the USA (with the appearance of a democracy), freedom of speech, right to assemble, and being ruled by ELECTED officials is far more likely to work compared to countries where the people have no rights and live under military dictatorships....

Yes.

Hard to imagine isn't it. You complain all the time (this thread for example) of how oppressed you are, based on your posts, I don't think you have the slightest clue what oppression really is. It's almost like you are doing everything you can to justify the use of guns, and avoid anything that could lead to reforms through peace. Armed uprising should be the LAST resort, yet you guys skip everything and go there right away, as if you're living in mad max world. We live in WESTERN SOCIETY people. 

Go pick up your 2nd Amendment, and then go use it to free yourself from oppression. Let me know how that works out. 
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#57
Posted: 4/18/2012 11:32:37 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by be easy:



I believe that every law is made for a reason, to benefit those that make the laws, at the price of those of us that are forced to labor to support their way of life

a much more fitting comparison to the situation in Egypt, where the Kings imprison the serfs and force them to labor for their masters

If an American wants to leave the country, by all means, some horse garbage fed income tax lien is by no means justification to make said laborer, property of the state. What if the person is infirmed, and doesn't have any money or assets, and their only chance of survival is to make it up to Canada to be taken care of by their family that has seeken refuse from the State up in the great white north? You'd rather see the IRS take him at gun point and imprison the guy?

Infirmed and no money or assets, yet a 50k tax bill? Not sure how that adds up.

I have seen many posts that deal with our deficit deficit. Part of addressing that is to deal with the revenue portion (and obviously the expenditures).

There is an irony here though...people complain about those that live of the system, but someone who received the benefit of government services, yet doesn't pay taxes, does the same thing.

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#58
Posted: 4/18/2012 6:46:53 PM

i wonder how this will apply to student loans in default over 50k

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#59
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:08:29 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rooster010:

i wonder how this will apply to student loans in default over 50k

I can answer this.

Student loans are governed solely by the principle of contract. The Court would have no authority to prevent one from traveling due to default.

One could be held in contempt and jailed for failure to pay, however. Obviously, taking trips does indicate one's ability to pay.

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#60
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:14:04 PM

quitting the country does not equal taking trips

cant the irs garnish your wages and keep any refunds due if you are in default?

it wouldnt be a stretch

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#61
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:21:44 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rooster010:

quitting the country does not equal taking trips

cant the irs garnish your wages and keep any refunds due if you are in default?

it wouldnt be a stretch

Re: student loans, what exactly is the order of actions by the person in default? My example was in reference to someone being found to be in default and whether or not they have the ability to pay.

One cannot receive an IRS refund, absent compelling circumstances, if they have a tax debt. The refund is applied against the debt. Obviously, that would only apply if you are in the country and having taxes assessed.

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#62
Posted: 4/18/2012 7:30:41 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


That's one opinion.

I actually said I think the likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change in the USA (with the appearance of a democracy), freedom of speech, right to assemble, and being ruled by ELECTED officials is far more likely to work compared to countries where the people have no rights and live under military dictatorships....

Yes.

Hard to imagine isn't it. You complain all the time (this thread for example) of how oppressed you are, based on your posts, I don't think you have the slightest clue what oppression really is. It's almost like you are doing everything you can to justify the use of guns, and avoid anything that could lead to reforms through peace. Armed uprising should be the LAST resort, yet you guys skip everything and go there right away, as if you're living in mad max world. We live in WESTERN SOCIETY people. 

Go pick up your 2nd Amendment, and then go use it to free yourself from oppression. Let me know how that works out. 


Armed uprising WILL be the last resort. 

When they come for my guns.  


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#63
Posted: 4/18/2012 8:04:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Re: student loans, what exactly is the order of actions by the person in default? My example was in reference to someone being found to be in default and whether or not they have the ability to pay.

One cannot receive an IRS refund, absent compelling circumstances, if they have a tax debt. The refund is applied against the debt. Obviously, that would only apply if you are in the country and having taxes assessed.

with the student loan bubble reaching into the trillions, some of those jaded kids are gonna want to leave the country

im just speculating

but if student loans=tax debt, then they will not be able to

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#64
Posted: 4/18/2012 8:05:57 PM
when i say leave the country, i mean leave for good
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#65
Posted: 4/18/2012 11:39:32 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



actually, yoe were rambling off topic and i still provided you the off topic info you asked for. I think when it made you out to look like an uneducated fool, you got all defensive. Either way, doesn't matter, just stop stalking me, and like any other ignorant person, i'd suggest to stop making a fool of yourself and get educated on the matter you choose to girl about, lest you wind up looking like a dullard and a fool




I think it is ironic that you tell me to get educated when we both know that I am actually more educated then you are.

we do? we don't . Speak for yourself, i have never per missed you to speak on my behalf, and now that is see you are just throwing around wild assumptions, i'd really rather you not

covers noise


how is talking about the failure of the legislative branch on your own thread about a bill being passed by the legislative branch off topic?

Stalking you?.... how is posting on your thread my personal perspective and then asking you for more info stalking?  I guess everyone that posted on this thread must be stalking you

this is a subforum of a gambling website... I really dont mind being wrong and learning more info when possible... mostly here to have fun... I just gave my personal opinion on the topic and facts you presented on your own thread... I just dont see what the big deal is for you?

So how is it that Im defensive?  If anything you look defensive by being all negative and insulting... ignorant,dullard,ignorant, fool, girl?  Seriously what's your deal?

Try this... take a deep breath and let it out and let your mind be easy

 


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#66
Posted: 4/19/2012 2:07:08 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


That's one opinion.

I actually said I think the likelihood of peaceful protests bringing meaningful change in the USA (with the appearance of a democracy), freedom of speech, right to assemble, and being ruled by ELECTED officials is far more likely to work compared to countries where the people have no rights and live under military dictatorships....

Yes.

Hard to imagine isn't it. You complain all the time (this thread for example) of how oppressed you are, based on your posts, I don't think you have the slightest clue what oppression really is. It's almost like you are doing everything you can to justify the use of guns, and avoid anything that could lead to reforms through peace. Armed uprising should be the LAST resort, yet you guys skip everything and go there right away, as if you're living in mad max world. We live in WESTERN SOCIETY people. 

Go pick up your 2nd Amendment, and then go use it to free yourself from oppression. Let me know how that works out. 
300 new laws are being created every year in the US

Freedom of speech – slowly becoming illegal

Right to assemble – slowly becoming illegal

Right to bear arms – slowly becoming illegal

Being ruled by ELECTED officials – Elections mean nothing if they’re rigged. Hacking democracy is an example.  

You act is if I’m against peaceful protest and I’m not. Everything in place in the US has been achieved by protest. I’m saying I want American citizens to have guns in-case the government decided to use brute force on the masses.

. A gun is insurance and I always plan for the worst. If the government has weapons and you don’t, then that just means you’re an inmate. You take away rights and the ability to defend yourself and protest, then you are fucked.

You must not be aware of American politics because America is slowly becoming a policed state with 500,000 laws.

Disco

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#67
Posted: 4/19/2012 7:35:47 AM

Freedom of speech – slowly becoming illegal

Right to assemble – slowly becoming illegal

Right to bear arms – slowly becoming illegal

I’m saying I want American citizens to have guns in-case the government decided to use brute force on the masses.

. A gun is insurance and I always plan for the worst. If the government has weapons and you don’t, then that just means you’re an inmate. You take away rights and the ability to defend yourself and protest, then you are fucked.

You must not be aware of American politics because America is slowly becoming a policed state with 500,000 laws

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Boy, I don't think that could be said any better.    

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#68
Posted: 4/19/2012 11:33:29 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

300 new laws are being created every year in the US


Freedom of speech – slowly becoming illegal

Right to assemble – slowly becoming illegal

Right to bear arms – slowly becoming illegal

Being ruled by ELECTED officials – Elections mean nothing if they’re rigged. Hacking democracy is an example.  

You act is if I’m against peaceful protest and I’m not. Everything in place in the US has been achieved by protest. I’m saying I want American citizens to have guns in-case the government decided to use brute force on the masses.

. A gun is insurance and I always plan for the worst. If the government has weapons and you don’t, then that just means you’re an inmate. You take away rights and the ability to defend yourself and protest, then you are fucked.

You must not be aware of American politics because America is slowly becoming a policed state with 500,000 laws.

Disco


Money, I feel you. I know what you are saying...

I guess my position is that, if it is 'last resort' and you are even in the situation where it is appropriate to use arms, it is already far too late. You would already be fucked, and no amount of arms is going to help you. The second amendment will be as useless against tyranny then as it is now. Like I said you will either be killed in a firefight or you will be taken if they want you, for any reason, even if it is trivial. 

It's time to stand up and say both of those probable outcomes are wrong. The path to collapse and chaos has been paved by the corrupt officials (D & especially R) who have dedicated their time in office to MAKE SURE you have every right to own guns. As many as you want. That's how much they think it would matter if garbage hit the fan. Think about that.

The time to use peace to demand reform is now. I guess I'm slightly dismayed because all I hear is people talking about guns but nobody is doing anything to support the protestors. Right wing militias don't accomplish anything except spreading fear, hatred and mistrust. 100 OWS protestors get beaten up by the police. Not 1,000,000. They need help. You're right about diminishing rights. That's why the time to act is now.

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#69
Posted: 4/19/2012 12:49:08 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Money, I feel you. I know what you are saying...

I guess my position is that, if it is 'last resort' and you are even in the situation where it is appropriate to use arms, it is already far too late. You would already be fucked, and no amount of arms is going to help you. The second amendment will be as useless against tyranny then as it is now. Like I said you will either be killed in a firefight or you will be taken if they want you, for any reason, even if it is trivial. 

It's time to stand up and say both of those probable outcomes are wrong. The path to collapse and chaos has been paved by the corrupt officials (D & especially R) who have dedicated their time in office to MAKE SURE you have every right to own guns. As many as you want. That's how much they think it would matter if garbage hit the fan. Think about that.

The time to use peace to demand reform is now. I guess I'm slightly dismayed because all I hear is people talking about guns but nobody is doing anything to support the protestors. Right wing militias don't accomplish anything except spreading fear, hatred and mistrust. 100 OWS protestors get beaten up by the police. Not 1,000,000. They need help. You're right about diminishing rights. That's why the time to act is now.

Remember I’m not a right winger, I have guns and am prepared to fight for the American people. Whether it’s against my own government or a foreign one on American soil. You think the government can overthrow the American people?

HA, you’re dead wrong about that my friend. The government couldn’t even defeat the people in the LA riots. That totalitarian garbage might work on other people but not with Americans. The North Korean, Chinese, Iranian, Russian, government would be dead if they tried that garbage over here.

Those countries push their citizens around like sheep. Americans don’t take that kind of garbage. California and Texas alone would defeat the US government in a few days because US soldiers would side with the American people. The only people that would defend the government would be riot police and they would collapse and turn on the government.

Americans are crazy violent guy and I want them to have guns to keep the government at bay. I sleep comfortable with guns in my possession at night. The problem isn’t guns, it’s stupid people. Freedom isn’t free and sometimes loss of life is a price to pay for freedom. That’s why freedom isn’t free. I’m uncomfortable with right wing militia too but in a free society sometimes you have to except the bad that goes along with freedom.

I wish the Republican Party of today didn’t exist but it does. I believe democrats can be fixed with a little bit a lecturing but today’s Republicans need serious mental health reform. The only way today’s republicans can be fixed is if schools are completely reformed, if jesus christ came down, revealed he’s a buddhist, taught them peace, love and unity, chakras, fed all of today’s republicans mushrooms, made them smoke weed, and JC assigned a minority friend.

I wish Ron Paul and John Stossel were the leaders of the Republican Party. I want peaceful revolution as well disco. I’m a rare bird aren’t I? I hate the Democratic Party but have sided with the Democrats my whole life and a I’m Libertarian that sides with the Green Party, I'm pro gun, and will vote for Obama because Ron Paul is not on the ballot. 

Disco
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#70
Posted: 4/19/2012 1:25:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Money, I feel you. I know what you are saying...

I guess my position is that, if it is 'last resort' and you are even in the situation where it is appropriate to use arms, it is already far too late. You would already be fucked, and no amount of arms is going to help you. The second amendment will be as useless against tyranny then as it is now. Like I said you will either be killed in a firefight or you will be taken if they want you, for any reason, even if it is trivial. 

It's time to stand up and say both of those probable outcomes are wrong. The path to collapse and chaos has been paved by the corrupt officials (D & especially R) who have dedicated their time in office to MAKE SURE you have every right to own guns. As many as you want. That's how much they think it would matter if garbage hit the fan. Think about that.

The time to use peace to demand reform is now. I guess I'm slightly dismayed because all I hear is people talking about guns but nobody is doing anything to support the protestors. Right wing militias don't accomplish anything except spreading fear, hatred and mistrust. 100 OWS protestors get beaten up by the police. Not 1,000,000. They need help. You're right about diminishing rights. That's why the time to act is now.

“…if it is 'last resort' and you are even in the situation where it is appropriate to use arms, it is already far too late.”

 

In the meantime, you could defend yourself and wistfully philosophize later.

 

“The second amendment will be as useless against tyranny then as it is now.”

 

We’ll be the judge of that.

 

“It's time to stand up and say both of those probable outcomes are wrong.”

 

Having you or your family victimized, and not being able to defend yourself is certainly wrong.

 

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#71
Posted: 4/19/2012 1:52:23 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

Remember I’m not a right winger, I have guns and am prepared to fight for the American people. Whether it’s against my own government or a foreign one on American soil. You think the government can overthrow the American people?


HA, you’re dead wrong about that my friend. The government couldn’t even defeat the people in the LA riots. That totalitarian garbage might work on other people but not with Americans. The North Korean, Chinese, Iranian, Russian, government would be dead if they tried that garbage over here.

Those countries push their citizens around like sheep. Americans don’t take that kind of garbage. California and Texas alone would defeat the US government in a few days because US soldiers would side with the American people. The only people that would defend the government would be riot police and they would collapse and turn on the government.

Americans are crazy violent guy and I want them to have guns to keep the government at bay. I sleep comfortable with guns in my possession at night. The problem isn’t guns, it’s stupid people. Freedom isn’t free and sometimes loss of life is a price to pay for freedom. That’s why freedom isn’t free. I’m uncomfortable with right wing militia too but in a free society sometimes you have to except the bad that goes along with freedom.

I wish the Republican Party of today didn’t exist but it does. I believe democrats can be fixed with a little bit a lecturing but today’s Republicans need serious mental health reform. The only way today’s republicans can be fixed is if schools are completely reformed, if jesus christ came down, revealed he’s a buddhist, taught them peace, love and unity, chakras, fed all of today’s republicans mushrooms, made them smoke weed, and JC assigned a minority friend.

I wish Ron Paul and John Stossel were the leaders of the Republican Party. I want peaceful revolution as well disco. I’m a rare bird aren’t I? I hate the Democratic Party but have sided with the Democrats my whole life and a I’m Libertarian that sides with the Green Party, I'm pro gun, and will vote for Obama because Ron Paul is not on the ballot. 

Disco

Enough said 



On a somewhat related note, I recently heard this:

'Right now, the USA only has one political party, the Republicans and their left wing.'


I thought to myself that summed it up perfectly 


You guys do need more political parties to break through, especially the Green Party.   
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#72
Posted: 4/22/2012 8:37:54 AM
what is it that you guys like so much about this Green Party?  I read their website, i don't get how they are that much different than the existing R's and D's. They don't talk much about their proposed tax structure, but they did allude to continuation of Fed Income Taxes
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#73
Posted: 4/22/2012 9:44:18 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:

what is it that you guys like so much about this Green Party?  I read their website, i don't get how they are that much different than the existing R's and D's. They don't talk much about their proposed tax structure, but they did allude to continuation of Fed Income Taxes
Greens are forced to vote democrat because of the disgusting beliefs that exist on the right.

I don’t give a garbage about taxes, as long as that disgusting element exists on the right, the democrats can tax me to death.

I have NO idea how you can say they are not much different. Democrats and Republicans live on different planets.

One's communist and the others bigoted christian sharia law. The green party is neither.

The green party is against the democrats and republicans and is somewhat of a combination of Ron Paul and Ralph Nader politics.

How you can read this and think they are the same puzzles the hell out of me be easy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_politics
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#74
Posted: 4/22/2012 9:59:02 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

Greens are forced to vote democrat because of the disgusting beliefs that exist on the right.

I don’t give a garbage about taxes, as long as that disgusting element exists on the right, the democrats can tax me to death.

I have NO idea how you can say they are not much different. Democrats and Republicans live on different planets.

One's communist and the others bigoted christian sharia law. The green party is neither.

The green party is against the democrats and republicans and is somewhat of a combination of Ron Paul and Ralph Nader politics.

How you can read this and think they are the same puzzles the hell out of me be easy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_politics


then you must not pay them?!

the economy is the only thing that matters, without a healthy economy, there is no chance at meeting any social goals. Sadly, political economy rues the day, as there is no way in the present system to decouple the economy from the political system, the present state of the economy isa direct result of our failed political system.

MoneySRH, i got my in for from http://www.gp.org/index.php, i prefer to get mine from the source rather then 3rd party wiki. A lot of what they say sounds nice, but not to different from the desires of those that willingly box themselves into the current two party system. A dream is nice and all, and we all like hearing the girls at the beauty pageants rampble their ideas for world peace, however, without a means for change and a mode to get there, it is all just rubbish to me. As a Georgist, i see no indication that the Greens 'get it', and they don't seem to have any clue how to get from 'here to there'

I do like that they are in support of Communitarianism and realise a need for a decentralized government. That is the way our Republic was designed, for the power to rest with the individual locales. Location Location Location! every locale is unique, with uniquely different conditions, problems, and available solutions. Central power is the devil and is horribly unjust and inefficient. "bottoms up approach" jives with my jib. Federal income taxes, certainly do not.


From the Greenies site, they claim that "welfare" is a means to ending poverty, and call for it to be paid via progressive income taxes, and for the poor to have a negative income tax and a living wage funded via the income taxes of others. GROW THE darn UP, AND GET BACK TO REALITY


  • We call for restoration of a federally funded entitlement program to support children, families, the unemployed, elderly and disabled, with no time limit on benefits. This program should be funded through the existing welfare budget, reductions in military spending and corporate subsidies, and a fair, progressive income tax.


"Greenies"


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MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15415
Location: Pennsylvania
#75
Posted: 4/22/2012 10:01:53 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

Greens are forced to vote democrat because of the disgusting beliefs that exist on the right.

I don’t give a garbage about taxes, as long as that disgusting element exists on the right, the democrats can tax me to death.

I have NO idea how you can say they are not much different. Democrats and Republicans live on different planets.

One's communist and the others bigoted christian sharia law. The green party is neither.

The green party is against the democrats and republicans and is somewhat of a combination of Ron Paul and Ralph Nader politics.

How you can read this and think they are the same puzzles the hell out of me be easy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_politics


hilarious how many different people do NOTHING BUT find fault in the right, and then by default consider themselves supporters of the democrat party

But somehow, NONE OF THEM want to own the Democrat party as their own, which is guess might be a good thing, IF they didn't all go out and blindly for all things democrat. Hell, i've read some on here that claim to be conservative, spend all their time railing against right wing religious crazies (a figment of their imagination) , and then go so far as to FUND THE FASCIST LEFT

Anyone self respecting American that could vote for any pol that supports Obamacare
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