Messages

Forum Index : Politics : Messages Page 1 of 4  1 2 3 4  
Author: [Politics] Topic: what is the purpose/function/utility of "health" "insurance"?
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#1
Posted: 3/31/2012 4:56:36 PM
where did this concept originate, and when did it become common knowledge in America, that the only way an individual should be able to participate in commerce with Healthcare Services, is after they have paid the toll that the insurance industry built at their gates?


quote
bowlslit send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: 5Dimes |
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4055
Location: Greece
#2
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:00:51 PM

I would submit so that doctors and medical professions could make more money.

Rather than get paid with chickens and goats.

 

quote
bowlslit send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: 5Dimes |
bowlslit
Participation Meter
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4055
Location: Greece
#3
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:03:07 PM

...Medical schools could charge more for tuition...and everything related to medical could effectively take in more revenue.

quote
depeche2 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
depeche2
Participation Meter
Legend
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 67006
Location: Illinois
#4
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:07:20 PM
Because otherwise the vast majority of people who got sick couldn't possibly afford to pay for the health care they need to live.  Instead, we all pay.  They become free riders and/or file for bankruptcy.  No personal responsibility.  Personal responsibility used to be a Republican concept.  Republicans were for individual mandates before they were against it.  Or, to be more precise, before Obama and the Democrats were for it.  The Heritage Foundation used to promote individual mandate.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/10/20/how-a-conservative-think-tank-invented-the-individual-mandate/
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#5
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:07:43 PM

Health insurance is insurance against the risk of incurring medical expenses among individuals. By estimating the overall risk of health care expenses among a targeted group, an insurer can develop a routine finance structure, such as a monthly premium or payroll tax, to ensure that money is available to pay for the health care benefits specified in the insurance agreement. The benefit is administered by a central organization such as a government agency, private business, or not-for-profit entity.[1]


from wiki


quote
wallstreetcappers send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
wallstreetcappers
Participation Meter
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 49547
Location: United States
#6
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:08:36 PM
I suppose if compensation was not part of the equation then the world would be even more full of medical professionals and innovations?

We could always drop back to using leeches and warm cloths to cure our ills.

Excess is what you should complain about, not general compensation.
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#7
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:11:40 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by depeche2:

Because otherwise the vast majority of people who got sick couldn't possibly afford to pay for the health care they need to live.  Instead, we all pay.  They become free riders and/or file for bankruptcy.  No personal responsibility.  Personal responsibility used to be a Republican concept.  Republicans were for individual mandates before they were against it.  Or, to be more precise, before Obama and the Democrats were for it.  The Heritage Foundation used to promote individual mandate.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/10/20/how-a-conservative-think-tank-invented-the-individual-mandate/


hold on just a second. I asked you a question in

this thread

pertaining to this idea you insist, that we cannot have one without the other.

Why must all health care services, be paid for by an insurance middle man?

Why can't my PCP, have a menu with pricing for things like routine check ups/ physicals, common cold script signing visits etc.?
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#8
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:12:37 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

I suppose if compensation was not part of the equation then the world would be even more full of medical professionals and innovations?

We could always drop back to using leeches and warm cloths to cure our ills.

Excess is what you should complain about, not general compensation.


Why do they need insurance companies to compensate them?

Why couldn't i use the money that i get from my job, to pay them for their services (like we do with all other goods/services?)
quote
depeche2 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
depeche2
Participation Meter
Legend
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 67006
Location: Illinois
#9
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:15:39 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



hold on just a second. I asked you a question in

this thread

pertaining to this idea you insist, that we cannot have one without the other.

Why must all health care services, be paid for by an insurance middle man?

Why can't my PCP, have a menu with pricing for things like routine check ups/ physicals, common cold script signing visits etc.?


Because health care costs are not predictable in a way that can be easily budgeted for.  I assume you would make the same argument about auto insurance.  Why should that be required?
quote
wallstreetcappers send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
wallstreetcappers
Participation Meter
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 49547
Location: United States
#10
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:22:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



Why do they need insurance companies to compensate them?

Why couldn't i use the money that i get from my job, to pay them for their services (like we do with all other goods/services?)

For a large variety of reasons. When an employer organizes a benefit for a large number of workers it makes more sense to spread risk over a large group, and pool funds via insurance..also insurance allows one to have coverage in case of potential problems.

I've never needed more than basic care, just regular visits and maybe a flu or cold visit once every few years..so the net effect is probably a negative over many years..but this year it is not so simplistic and the need was there. Had I paid as I went it would have worked in the past but not this year..so having coverage has benefited me this year for sure.

Of course no way am I going into detail about the why, but sharing risk and spreading it through insurance can be helpful and having coverage if in need is also reassuring.

For someone in their younger years like you it seems unnecessary, but life is not one of 20-30 and your perspective changes as you age.
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#11
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:26:25 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by depeche2:



Because health care costs are not predictable in a way that can be easily budgeted for.  I assume you would make the same argument about auto insurance.  Why should that be required?


If health care costs cannot be predicted, what is it that the health insurance companies are doing that they are charging so much money for?

I am 30 y.o male non smoker that doesn't eat sugar. I pay 5900$ annually for "health" "insurance", and $900 annually for auto insurance. THe auto insurance, i can understand. The lien holder wants me to have comprehensive, in order to protect the value of their collateralized loan. Not the hardest number to figure out, we have a decently effective market for cars. If i don't like the whole concept of auto insurance, as an American, i don't have to participate. I can ride my bike or take the Shoe Leather Express,,,both i do from time to time

Health insurance makes no sense. I don't want to participate. So you think i should have to go to prison?
quote
wallstreetcappers send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
wallstreetcappers
Participation Meter
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 49547
Location: United States
#12
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:31:05 PM
Of course it makes no sense, you are in the prime of health age wise.

Call me in 15 yrs and see if your tune changes, I guarantee it will.

People who do not have the need to spread risk dont need to have coverage..you can pay out of pocket, but I also guarantee you will not properly plan for future need now..no way. 

If you want to avoid health insurance then make sure to sock away 10k a year and dont touch it, that will be your health coverage pool and it should cover you for later years, unless you are one of those who would rather save the money now and die earlier instead of take care of health concerns as they come (and they will).
quote
depeche2 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
depeche2
Participation Meter
Legend
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 67006
Location: Illinois
#13
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:38:30 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



If health care costs cannot be predicted, what is it that the health insurance companies are doing that they are charging so much money for?

I am 30 y.o male non smoker that doesn't eat sugar. I pay 5900$ annually for "health" "insurance", and $900 annually for auto insurance. THe auto insurance, i can understand. The lien holder wants me to have comprehensive, in order to protect the value of their collateralized loan. Not the hardest number to figure out, we have a decently effective market for cars. If i don't like the whole concept of auto insurance, as an American, i don't have to participate. I can ride my bike or take the Shoe Leather Express,,,both i do from time to time

Health insurance makes no sense. I don't want to participate. So you think i should have to go to prison?


An individual cannot accurately predict his or her health care costs.  Spread out over a very large group, yes, then it can be predicted  That's the point of insurance.

As for auto, you mention lienholder.  What if I own my car outright.  Then I shouldn't be required to have insurance?
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#14
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:42:51 PM
As for auto, you mention lienholder.  What if I own my car outright.  Then I shouldn't be required to have insurance?

Nobody said that. But this is and apples to oranges comparison.

you are now talking about LIABILITY auto insurance, which is something the state forces you to purchase, in order to mitigate everyone else's risk, should you have an event while enjoying your privilege to drive, that adversely affects someone else

again, you don't like it? Don't drive, problem solved. Or move to California, you can self insure so long as you have enough assets to lever said liability, against
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#15
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:46:58 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:

Of course it makes no sense, you are in the prime of health age wise.

Call me in 15 yrs and see if your tune changes, I guarantee it will.

People who do not have the need to spread risk dont need to have coverage..you can pay out of pocket, but I also guarantee you will not properly plan for future need now..no way. 

If you want to avoid health insurance then make sure to sock away 10k a year and dont touch it, that will be your health coverage pool and it should cover you for later years, unless you are one of those who would rather save the money now and die earlier instead of take care of health concerns as they come (and they will).


your post is loaded with assumptions

first, you assume, that in 15 years, my tune will change,,,,why is that?

you also use the word "future NEED",,,,,did you mean, future WANT?

If you want to avoid health insurance then make sure to sock away 10k a year and dont touch it

Exactly, this is what i do. However, maybe not in the same way you would assume.  We all know that monetary policy and tax policy, dis-incentivizes the hell out of this type of saving. Talk about fighting headwinds, let me tell you. Now, on top of all that, i'm going to have to be assessed a fine by the IRS, and then they will put me in prison. That sounds less healthy then the option i chose for myself, no?
quote
KOAJ send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
KOAJ
Participation Meter
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 66698
Location: New Jersey
#16
Posted: 3/31/2012 5:57:22 PM
i wish i only paid 5900 a year


quote
dl36
RSI Wagerline RSI Rating
send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: BetJamaica.com |
dl36
Participation Meter
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 23542
Location: United States
#17
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:02:29 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



hold on just a second. I asked you a question in

this thread

pertaining to this idea you insist, that we cannot have one without the other.

Why must all health care services, be paid for by an insurance middle man?

Why can't my PCP, have a menu with pricing for things like routine check ups/ physicals, common cold script signing visits etc.?


It is not... I dont deal with insurance companies at all...  just negotiate a fair price for services that both parties can agree upon and only accept payment out of pocket,,,

This does a few  things which are advantageous to my business...

1.  saves me time, money and attention to not having to process paperwork... the entire field of medical billing and coding is based on the insurance buracracy

2.  Ensures my payment because insurance does not always reimburse.

3.  Allows me to negotiate individual prices for services based on individual circumstances...  if not insurance will dictate price and number of sessions...

4.  Allows me to weed out the type of patients I see because people paying out of pocket are often more committed and take the treatment more seriously while people who simply bill their insurance are often not as personal invested on a money and effort level...

quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#18
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:05:45 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KOAJ:

i wish i only paid 5900 a year




I wish we discriminated against people who consume sugar, the same way we discriminate against people that smoke tobacco
(there wouldn't be a 'problem' for the 'government' to solve by forcing individuals do commerce with a 'private' industry)


I would say, in the same way we discriminate against people that consume marijuana, but i wouldn't wish that on ANYONE

Everyone needs access to good, clean, safe water. Why doesn't the federal government work on that, before they get involved with the health of the citizenry. Health, covers everything to do with our lives. It really has nothing to do with insurance. Does anyone believe that AHA is a means to an end of a healthier citizenry?  I mean, if the fear is, that without this, there would be people dying in the streets, i'm wondering why people aren't dying in the streets now? Has anything in Obamacare actually been implemented yet?
quote
dl36
RSI Wagerline RSI Rating
send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: BetJamaica.com |
dl36
Participation Meter
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 23542
Location: United States
#19
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:08:15 PM
beeasy I have said this on other threads but this is my recommendation if you are a healthy individual...

Purchase insurance with a super high deductible so the monthly premiums are extremely low... you will do better paying out of pocket and having your PCP bill you then paying the high monthly premiums for the $25 or less copay route...

and along with this purchase insurance with a super high or no cap... alot of insurances that people for will leave you high and dry once they pay out their limit and in emergency or disastrous circumstances that will leave you bankrupt.... the insurance a healthy person needs is for the disaster that will be covered no matter how much it costs

So having a a high deductible and no limit will give you the price and adequate coverage for the worst case scenario and allow you to pay out of pocket for the basics when you need it which you should have no problem affording because you arent paying the high monthly premiums of the standard medical insurance scam...
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#20
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:10:19 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by dl36:



It is not... I dont deal with insurance companies at all...  just negotiate a fair price for services that both parties can agree upon and only accept payment out of pocket,,,

This does a few  things which are advantageous to my business...

1.  saves me time, money and attention to not having to process paperwork... the entire field of medical billing and coding is based on the insurance buracracy

2.  Ensures my payment because insurance does not always reimburse.

3.  Allows me to negotiate individual prices for services based on individual circumstances...  if not insurance will dictate price and number of sessions...

4.  Allows me to weed out the type of patients I see because people paying out of pocket are often more committed and take the treatment more seriously while people who simply bill their insurance are often not as personal invested on a money and effort level...



absolutely. You keep it simple, it remains affordable, and best of all it works. I think you've said before you are in some sort of psychology field? Are those type of health services included just the same as all other health services? I mean, i know that in order to be healthy, one must be all good in their head, along with their body

If i was a prospective patient at your shop, could i call in advance and ask how much services were to cost, before coming in and recieving them? Can your area of the market be shopped, with transparent pricing?
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#21
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:14:24 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by dl36:

beeasy I have said this on other threads but this is my recommendation if you are a healthy individual...

Purchase insurance with a super high deductible so the monthly premiums are extremely low... you will do better paying out of pocket and having your PCP bill you then paying the high monthly premiums for the $25 or less copay route...

and along with this purchase insurance with a super high or no cap... alot of insurances that people for will leave you high and dry once they pay out their limit and in emergency or disastrous circumstances that will leave you bankrupt.... the insurance a healthy person needs is for the disaster that will be covered no matter how much it costs

So having a a high deductible and no limit will give you the price and adequate coverage for the worst case scenario and allow you to pay out of pocket for the basics when you need it which you should have no problem affording because you arent paying the high monthly premiums of the standard medical insurance scam...


As nice as it sounds, it's not that easy (or simple). Tax policy is structured as such, to make this almost impossible for me to do, without paying an unjust amount more then i do currently. Purely a resort of the government being involved in the decision process. Dump the 160 BILLION dollars a year we gift employers for providing health insurance, and instantly everything changes,,,,,,,,,,,and i just saved us, the people that make up usfedgov, 160 Billion dollars a year!! me
quote
wallstreetcappers send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
wallstreetcappers
Participation Meter
Covers Linesmen
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 49547
Location: United States
#22
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:16:25 PM
Life changes you be, what you see now will not be what you see in 5,10,15,20 yrs.

Insurance is pooling risk period.

People dont need something until they NEED it..then I suppose they just file BK or sh!t on the other party when they are unable to fulfill their end of the deal right?

So yes at age 30 you are in a great position, you might not need it now and that "cost" seems high..I promise if you live past 40 you will start seeing value in pooling risk.

Same goes for insurance..if you are willing to roll the dice then be ready to pay up if you roll snake eyes.


quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#23
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:23:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

I would submit so that doctors and medical professions could make more money.

Rather than get paid with chickens and goats.

 



that's why the government requires these folk to get licensed
quote
be easy send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
be easy
Participation Meter
MVP
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 15412
Location: Pennsylvania
#24
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:24:15 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

...Medical schools could charge more for tuition...and everything related to medical could effectively take in more revenue.



see post 23
quote
dl36
RSI Wagerline RSI Rating
send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook | My Sportsbook: BetJamaica.com |
dl36
Participation Meter
Hall of Fame
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 23542
Location: United States
#25
Posted: 3/31/2012 6:29:41 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



that's why the government requires these folk to get licensed


I think licensing is actually both a scam and necessity
quote
Forum Index : Politics : Messages Page 1 of 4  1 2 3 4  
You have entered the forum as a GUEST. 
You must login/register to post or reply.