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[Politics] Topic: Open & Shut Trayvon Martin Gets Cluttered With Facts |
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14daroad |
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#426 Posted: 4/3/2012 11:37:56 AM Since wound ballistics is considered forensic pathology, I'm real curious who is out there doing this djbrow.
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wallstreetcappers |
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#427 Posted: 4/3/2012 11:46:54 AM How have I missed this gem..
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14daroad |
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#428 Posted: 4/3/2012 11:49:49 AM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
Ballastic tests go far beyond testing the gun that was fired. They include an examination of the wound to determine distance, angles, trajectory, and powder burns. None of which was done here.
Since you're saying the medical examiner's office doesn't do these tests, please tell us who does.
I'm real, real curious about your answer.
And, since there is no dispute an autopsy was conducted, (where the medical examiner is looking for evidence of trauma or other indications of the cause of death. The process varies based on the nature of the case and is incredibly detailed -- the forensic pathologist has to adhere to an intricate, in-depth process to ensure the proper collection and documentation of evidence.After the examination, the body has an open and empty chest cavity with butterflied chest flaps, the top of the skull is missing, and the skull flaps are pulled over the face and neck.) it is silly & obscene to take the funeral director's comments at face value as Martin's body had a deep, Y-shaped incision from shoulder to shoulder as a part of the autopsy.
You're either lying or mis-informed.
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14daroad |
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#429 Posted: 4/3/2012 11:55:42 AM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
That is my point. A medical examiner's office doesn't perform wound ballistics. A medical examiner's officer performs an autopsy.

Really?
Now remember, you asserted that wound ballistics " include an examination of the wound to determine distance, angles, trajectory, and powder burns"
Well, in an interview with Atlanta's Fulton County Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Eric Kiesel we learn:
The essence of the medical examiner's job is to use his or her skill and experience to determine the true nature and cause of a particular wound. Depending on the type of wound or weapon used, this can get difficult. Dr. Kiesel talks about those difficulties:
[When] they weren't shot once, they were shot 13 times or 20 times ... you've got to sort out paths of all these bullets. You've got to figure out where each bullet went. The old way of doing it was, 'Well, he's got 10 holes on the front, there are eight holes on the back, and there's two bullets inside, we're done.' [The] legal system won't accept that anymore.
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14daroad |
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#430 Posted: 4/3/2012 11:57:18 AM Djbrow,
Caught lying again.
And when the medical examiner's office releases the files on the Martin shooting which will include a detailed description of the bullet wound, I'll be sure to remind you.

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djbrow |
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#431 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:00:10 PM All of your posts deal with cause of death (medical examiner, autopsy). That is not the purpose of wound ballistics which is to determine angles, burns, fragments, etc. for verification of trajectory, etc.
For a good read on wound ballistics, Dr. Dimatio is a genious in the field.
By the way, do you realize why you are the only one calling names, making accusations, etc.? |
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SarasotaSlim |
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#432 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:10:36 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
By the way, do you realize why you are the only one calling names, making accusations, etc.?
The only one on page #18 ...so far .. |
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MoneySRH |
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#433 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:12:57 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
Well....I do appreciate you bringing a different perspective.
With that being said, I don't think there was corruption, racism (although maybe some unintended indirect perceptions of black youth), or a sinister act.
I just think there was a very quick rush to judgment that prevented a full range of evidence from coming to light which has spoiled this case, sadly.  Martin family attorney Ben Crump said he is asking the U.S. Justice Department to review the investigation for possible interference by Wolfinger's office on the night Martin was shot to death by Neighborhood Watch leader George Zimmerman.
Crump sent a formal request to the Justice Department on Monday, saying, "within hours of the shooting in which Trayvon Martin was killed, Sanford Chief of Police Bill lee met with State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. We also believe that family members of shooter George Zimmerman were present at the police department. It was further revealed that State Attorney Norm Wolfinger and Chief Bill Lee overruled the recommendation of the lead homicide investigator, Chris Serino, who recommended that George Michale Zimemrman be arrested for manslaughter for killing Trayvon Benjamin Martin."
"There's enough information to say that George Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense and that he should be arrested and brought to trial," said attorney Natalie Jackson, who also represents the Martin family. "If (Serino) recommended that George Zimmerman be arrested, what happened? Why isn't George Zimmerman arrested? That is what we're asking the Justice Department to investigate."
Jackson said the Martin family just wants answers on why they never knew about the meeting and why Zimmerman wasn't arrested.
"We're not saying that it wasn't an appropriate meeting we're saying investigate it and find out what happened," Jackson said.
I believe after a conversation between Sanford police Chief Bill Lee, Capt. Robert O’Connor, and State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, the decision was made to "cut Zimmerman loose.” I believe State Attorney Norm Wolfinger had a relationship with Zimmerman’ s father a retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge and his mother a court clerk. This case has corruption written all over it. That’s why they said there wasn’t enough evidence and Angela Corey took over the case. I believe he is guilty and so does detective Chris Serino who created an affidavit. It is up to Angela Corey, the FBI, and detectives to make a case of what the detective and me believe happened.
Unfortunately, it may be to little too late. I believe the evidence has been destroyed and it’s hard to prosecute a case that has been corrupted from the start.
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14daroad |
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#434 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:14:35 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
All of your posts deal with cause of death (medical examiner, autopsy). That is not the purpose of wound ballistics which is to determine angles, burns, fragments, etc. for verification of trajectory, etc.
For a good read on wound ballistics, Dr. Dimatio is a genious in the field.
By the way, do you realize why you are the only one calling names, making accusations, etc.?
Um, "all of my posts" except the one quoting bullet paths, right?
You meant other than that one, correct?
And why haven't you answered the question, djbrow?
Who is out performing wound ballistics in a case like this, if not the medical examiner's office?
You realize you're not answering that for a specific reason, right?
Oh, and I enjoyed the quotation on Dr. Dimatio's book from:
-Irvin M. Sopher, M.D., Chief Medical Examiner, State of West Virginia
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14daroad |
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#435 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:17:30 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
All of your posts deal with cause of death (medical examiner, autopsy). That is not the purpose of wound ballistics which is to determine angles, burns, fragments, etc. for verification of trajectory, etc.
Um, that would be a lie. The essence of the medical examiner's job is to use his or her skill and experience to determine the true nature and cause of a particular wound
You realize you're the only one here lying, right? |
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djbrow |
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#436 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:23:15 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:
Um, "all of my posts" except the one quoting bullet paths, right?
You meant other than that one, correct?
And why haven't you answered the question, djbrow?
Who is out performing wound ballistics in a case like this, if not the medical examiner's office?
You realize you're not answering that for a specific reason, right?
Oh, and I enjoyed the quotation on Dr. Dimatio's book from:
-Irvin M. Sopher, M.D., Chief Medical Examiner, State of West Virginia

If you read or have the book, it is a ballistic expert, never a medical examiner. (I'm looking at it right now).
But please continue with the name calling. 
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14daroad |
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#437 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:29:02 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:
If you read or have the book, it is a ballistic expert, never a medical examiner. (I'm looking at it right now).
Di Maio is a veteran of the U.S. Army Medical Corps, and served as chief medical examiner of San Antonio, Texas until 2006

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14daroad |
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#438 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:30:09 PM If you read or have the book, it is a ballistic expert, never a medical examiner
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I said the medical examiner's office. I said this at least 5 times.
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14daroad |
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#439 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:31:33 PM it is a ballistic expert
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And how often do these ballistic experts put their findings in police reports?
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14daroad |
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#440 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:33:30 PM Di Maio is a fellow of the National Association of Medical Examiners (NAME)
And we certainly would consider him a ballistics expert.
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#441 Posted: 4/3/2012 12:49:30 PM Of course he is a medical doctor. I have to imagine all ballistic experts are. But this is highly specialized. As you know, a coronor wouldn't be properly trained to conduct such a procedure, nor would a general practictioner.
The findings of a ballistic expert are submitted to the police, AG, defense, and/or government depending on the case and the issues at hand.
My point all along has been it was never ordered or directed here because the prosecution and/or police did not feel it was necessary. |
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14daroad |
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#442 Posted: 4/3/2012 2:01:43 PM Of course he is a medical doctor. I have to imagine all ballistic experts are. But this is highly specialized. As you know, a coronor wouldn't be properly trained to conduct such a procedure, nor would a general practictioner.
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Um, I never questioned whether he was a medical doctor.
I pointed out he was a medical examiner. You know, the type of people who you say are not conducting wound ballistics.
Further, I never used the word coroner, and a general practition is not a forensic pathologist. Why are you trying to conflate these things?
The findings of a ballistic expert are submitted to the police, AG, defense, and/or government depending on the case and the issues at hand.
So in other words, the findings are never in police reports, right?
So given that fact, why are you asserting that the absence of the mention in the police report is proof such testing didn't take place?
My point all along has been it was never ordered or directed here because the prosecution and/or police did not feel it was necessary.
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You have no evidence to support this silly assertion.
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14daroad |
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#443 Posted: 4/3/2012 2:07:10 PM So in sum. Djbrow asserts:
[Wound ballistics] was never ordered or directed here because the prosecution and/or police did not feel it was necessary.
Yet, the police don't tell the medical examiner whether or not to do an autopsy, and nor does the prosecution. Further, as a part of the autopsy, the medical examiner uses his or her skill and experience to determine the true nature and cause of a particular wound. Finally, neither the police nor prosection tell ballistic experts when or how to do their jobs.
Then, djbrow pretends that wound ballistics are done by "experts" who are not the medical examiner and the big piece of evidence to support this assertion is Dr. DiMaio's book which is praised by medical examiners and Dr. DiMaio was a medical examiner.
He also is a well regarded member of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
So djbrow is talking in circles here.
Or lying.
Or not who he claims to be.

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#444 Posted: 4/3/2012 2:16:10 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:
Z made it sound like he was reaching for the door handle and was "allegedly" attacked. When in fact the confrontation happened 3 blocks away for Z's vehicle.
Do you know this to be true? And if so, how do you know?
Why would Z say he was reaching for the door handle when he was attacked if the dead body was 3 FN blocks away? No one could be that stupid.
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14daroad |
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#445 Posted: 4/3/2012 2:27:30 PM Z made it sound like he was reaching for the door handle and was "allegedly" attacked. When in fact the confrontation happened 3 blocks away for Z's vehicle.
  
Really?
Why don't you show us where you getting this bombshell information.
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#446 Posted: 4/3/2012 2:38:23 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by 14daroad:
So in sum. Djbrow asserts:
[Wound ballistics] was never ordered or directed here because the prosecution and/or police did not feel it was necessary.
Yet, the police don't tell the medical examiner whether or not to do an autopsy, and nor does the prosecution. Further, as a part of the autopsy, the medical examiner uses his or her skill and experience to determine the true nature and cause of a particular wound. Finally, neither the police nor prosection tell ballistic experts when or how to do their jobs.
Then, djbrow pretends that wound ballistics are done by "experts" who are not the medical examiner and the big piece of evidence to support this assertion is Dr. DiMaio's book which is praised by medical examiners and Dr. DiMaio was a medical examiner.
He also is a well regarded member of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
So djbrow is talking in circles here.
Or lying.
Or not who he claims to be.

I never claimed to be anything. That was you. I am still waiting for you to discuss how many criminal cases you have been involved with, how many cases involving bullet injuries you have tried, and how many Motions to Suppress you have filed based on initial police investigatory work at the crime scene.
As for your assertions above, by your very own link, the examiner will determine cause of death, nature of wounds, and nature of injuries. A good example would be where a victim was killed and found months later. The cause of death would be vital to determine the time of death, which may narrow potential suspects.
This is separate from a wound ballistics expert, who does not do any of the above. It isn't their area of expertise.
From Dr. Di Maio's book on distance:
"A contact wound results when the muzzle is held against the body at the time of discharge, and can be further divided into hard, loose, angled, and incomplete contact wounds. In a hard-contact wound, the muzzle is held tightly against the skin. There is little external evidence that it is a contact wound, although if you inspect the entrance you will usually find searing and powder blackening of the immediate edge of the wound, while an autopsy will reveal particles of soot and unburnt powder in the wound track. In loose-contact wounds, the muzzle is held lightly against the skin, and the soot that is carried by the gas is deposited in a zone around the entrance, which can be wiped away. In an angled-contact wound, the barrel is held at an acute angle to the skin, and gas and soot radiate outwards from where the gun does not touch the skin. In an incomplete-contact wound, the barrel is held against the skin, but in a place where the skin is not completely flat. In this case, hot sooty gases escape the gap, leaving a long blackened and seared section of the skin, with scattered grains of powder."
This is simply outside the scope of a medical examiner. If a medical examiner tried to testify to the above at trial, it would be excluded under the Frye Standard. |
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#447 Posted: 4/3/2012 3:14:23 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:
Do you know this to be true? And if so, how do you know?
Why would Z say he was reaching for the door handle when he was attacked if the dead body was 3 FN blocks away? No one could be that stupid.
Zimmerman makes his story sound like Martin disappeared in to thin air and he was going back to his vehicle and was about to get to his vehicle and was blind sighted by Martin. I was being sarcastic. |
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#448 Posted: 4/3/2012 4:11:09 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:
Zimmerman makes his story sound like Martin disappeared in to thin air and he was going back to his vehicle and was about to get to his vehicle and was blind sighted by Martin. I was being sarcastic.
Thats bullshit. He said he lost sight of him. Why must you insist on being so irresponsible? |
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#449 Posted: 4/3/2012 4:22:12 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:
Thats bullshit. He said he lost sight of him. Why must you insist on being so irresponsible? He shouldn't have "lost sight" of him to being with. Let the cops find him.
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#450 Posted: 4/3/2012 4:33:50 PM QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:
He shouldn't have "lost sight" of him to being with. Let the cops find him.
He had no obligation to leave the scene and usually people help the police locate suspicious people when they arrive.
You are being nitpicky because you are losing and grasping at straws. |
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