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Author: [Politics] Topic: The Right Wing Smear Campaign
DiscoD69 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#1
Posted: 3/27/2012 2:33:27 PM
'What you need to know' - RIP 

You don't have to look very far to find the propaganda pylons doing the work of the right wing machine for them, smearing Trayvon and unilaterally defending Zimmerman. 



More from Think Progress to come, I'm sure 
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#2
Posted: 3/27/2012 2:41:21 PM
I think both sides -- left and right -- are clearly angling here for their own purposes. We don't even really know the true facts at this point, just what gets reported.
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#3
Posted: 3/27/2012 2:44:43 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by kaponofor3:

I think both sides -- left and right -- are clearly angling here for their own purposes. We don't even really know the true facts at this point, just what gets reported.

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#4
Posted: 3/27/2012 2:50:12 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kaponofor3:

I think both sides -- left and right -- are clearly angling here for their own purposes. We don't even really know the true facts at this point, just what gets reported.


Wouldn't an arrest and a proper investigation & trial shed some light on the 'facts?'

Either way, the SMEAR campaign against Trayvon Martin is completely offsides. 

That's the point of this thread.  
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#5
Posted: 3/27/2012 3:29:27 PM
disco - the local police would need probable cause to arrest someone. since there has been no arrest, one can conclude that there is not enough evidence for probable cause

you cant just arrest someone because Reverend Al and Jesse march and people are upset

also, posting a 5 year old pic of the deceased to gain sympathy is pathetic.
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#6
Posted: 3/27/2012 3:38:46 PM

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

Sherlock Holmes

From The Boscombe Valley Mystery, short story - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, 1891.

“Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing,” answered Holmes thoughtfully. “It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different."

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#7
Posted: 3/27/2012 3:48:23 PM


and thus the spin media was born!
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#8
Posted: 3/27/2012 3:54:01 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Wouldn't an arrest and a proper investigation & trial shed some light on the 'facts?'

Either way, the SMEAR campaign against Trayvon Martin is completely offsides. 

That's the point of this thread.  

Like KOAJ said, if the DA doesn't think there is probable cause to make an arrest then there will be no trial.

Points
*We know Zimmerman was following Martin
*We know a neighbor reported seeing Martin on top Zimmerman
 punching him
*We know Zimmerman shot and killed Martin

Now, let's play detective
*If Zimmerman stopped following Martin he is no longer defined as
 the aggressor. It is not a crime to follow someone if you stop
 following the person
*If Martin approached Zimmerman at his vehicle and starts
 questioning Zimmerman, as Zimmerman reported, Martin then
 becomes the aggressor
*When did Zimmerman actually pull his pistol? If he would have had
 it drawn before the physical altercation do you think Martin
 would have charged him or would Martin have run away?
*If Zimmerman shot Martin during the altercation to get him off or
 "stand his ground" then he will probably be exonerated. If
 Zimmerman shot Martin once Martin had gotten off of him
 then Zimmerman could possible be charged with
 manslaughter. The courts could see that as an unnecessary
 shooting.
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#9
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:28:30 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by canovsp:


Like KOAJ said, if the DA doesn't think there is probable cause to make an arrest then there will be no trial.

Points
*We know Zimmerman was following Martin
*We know a neighbor reported seeing Martin on top Zimmerman
 punching him
*We know Zimmerman shot and killed Martin

Now, let's play detective
*If Zimmerman stopped following Martin he is no longer defined as
 the aggressor. It is not a crime to follow someone if you stop
 following the person
*If Martin approached Zimmerman at his vehicle and starts
 questioning Zimmerman, as Zimmerman reported, Martin then
 becomes the aggressor
*When did Zimmerman actually pull his pistol? If he would have had
 it drawn before the physical altercation do you think Martin
 would have charged him or would Martin have run away?
*If Zimmerman shot Martin during the altercation to get him off or
 "stand his ground" then he will probably be exonerated. If
 Zimmerman shot Martin once Martin had gotten off of him
 then Zimmerman could possible be charged with
 manslaughter. The courts could see that as an unnecessary
 shooting.

Really? Is this the Fox News interpretation?

Let me ask you this....what is the usual method of investigation in this case. What don't we have/what wasn't done?

If you don't know the answer, just send an email to Fox news asking the same question so you know how best to answer.

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#10
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:30:20 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

Sherlock Holmes

From The Boscombe Valley Mystery, short story - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, 1891.

“Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing,” answered Holmes thoughtfully. “It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different."


My Friend, Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin by the police. He did so anyways, and not long after he shot and killed an unarmed teenager.

Why shouldn't he be put on trial for those actions? Let the courts determine if it was 'self-defence' or not.
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#11
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:33:19 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Wouldn't an arrest and a proper investigation & trial shed some light on the 'facts?'

Either way, the SMEAR campaign against Trayvon Martin is completely offsides. 

That's the point of this thread.  


An arrest can only be made with probable cause. If there was an investigation -- and there is an investigation of every reported homicide -- and that investigation resulted in no facts being discovered to support probable cause for an arrest, then you would prefer that the police department arrest the person anyways?
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#12
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:35:40 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


My Friend, Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin by the police. He did so anyways, and not long after he shot and killed an unarmed teenager.

Why shouldn't he be put on trial for those actions? Let the courts determine if it was 'self-defence' or not.


Because if we did that, our court system would be completely paralyzed with cases. The whole point of having a district attorney who represents the people is for that office, charged with responsibilities of protecting the public and given the consent of the public to act on its behalf, is so that the DA can determine whether or not they could take a case to trial and win at trial. If the DA doesn't think they can win the case at trial, then why the hell would you try the case anyways?
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#13
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:36:18 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


My Friend, Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin by the police. He did so anyways, and not long after he shot and killed an unarmed teenager.

Why shouldn't he be put on trial for those actions? Let the courts determine if it was 'self-defence' or not.

The actions you cite and the information obtained by the police are not criminal. That is not to say a criminal act did or did not occur. We just don't know.

I am more bothered by what was not investigated and as a result of what we did not know, either a young man was wrongly murdered or a innocent man is being crucified.

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#14
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:37:35 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kaponofor3:



An arrest can only be made with probable cause. If there was an investigation -- and there is an investigation of every reported homicide -- and that investigation resulted in no facts being discovered to support probable cause for an arrest, then you would prefer that the police department arrest the person anyways?


Well there is a legit question whether there was a proper investigation.  Clearly now there will be.  But we know they didn't even talk to the girlfriend that Trayvon was on the phone with.  That's pretty shoddy.  They appeared to have immediately accepted one side of events and closed the book.  Probable cause is often in the eye of the beholder.
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#15
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:42:30 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by depeche2:



Well there is a legit question whether there was a proper investigation.  Clearly now there will be.  But we know they didn't even talk to the girlfriend that Trayvon was on the phone with.  That's pretty shoddy.  They appeared to have immediately accepted one side of events and closed the book.  Probable cause is often in the eye of the beholder.


I don't disagree, depeche. That's why the public trust that is placed in the DA/PD office is so significant in my mind and carries such a weight of responsibility, one that is not to be taken lightly. Most people don't appreciate the significance of that public trust though.
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#16
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:43:40 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by depeche2:



Well there is a legit question whether there was a proper investigation.  Clearly now there will be.  But we know they didn't even talk to the girlfriend that Trayvon was on the phone with.  That's pretty shoddy.  They appeared to have immediately accepted one side of events and closed the book.  Probable cause is often in the eye of the beholder.

This.

If the police concluded that Nichole Brown Simpson was killed by drug dealers and never searched OJ's house or questioned him, would that mean probable cause did not exist?

 

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#17
Posted: 3/27/2012 4:58:31 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by kaponofor3:



Because if we did that, our court system would be completely paralyzed with cases. The whole point of having a district attorney who represents the people is for that office, charged with responsibilities of protecting the public and given the consent of the public to act on its behalf, is so that the DA can determine whether or not they could take a case to trial and win at trial. If the DA doesn't think they can win the case at trial, then why the hell would you try the case anyways?

The amount of people being killed by guns doesn't mean we shouldn't demand the truth in each case. If somebody gets killed and the police don't do their jobs properly, does that mean we should just shrug our shoulders and say 'forget it' because the DA won't be able to build a case??

Amount of gun crime and homicides aside, every time a life is taken justice should be served.

The problem with this case, is that there are so many problems with this case. We may never get the truth, but either way, the right wing smear campaign against Martin is offensive and unjustified. You guys can debate the specifics of this case, I welcome it. But this thread was meant to point out the serious character assassination campaign by the right wing propaganda machine, which is what I have a problem with.

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#18
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:00:47 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


The amount of people being killed by guns doesn't mean we shouldn't demand the truth in each case. If somebody gets killed and the police don't do their jobs properly, does that mean we should just shrug our shoulders and say 'forget it' because the DA won't be able to build a case??

Amount of gun crime and homicides aside, every time a life is taken justice should be served.

The problem with this case, is that there are so many problems with this case. We may never get the truth, but either way, the right wing smear campaign against Martin is offensive and unjustified. You guys can debate the specifics of this case, I welcome it. But this thread was meant to point out the serious character assassination campaign by the right wing propaganda machine, which is what I have a problem with.

The left wing has not been innocent either.

I have no problem with people pointing out the terrible investigation, but there is no reason to villify Zimmerman in the process.

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#19
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:41:20 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

The left wing has not been innocent either.

I have no problem with people pointing out the terrible investigation, but there is no reason to villify Zimmerman in the process.


I guess I would say, only one of the two has the privilege to be around right now to defend themselves.

The other is responsible for that. Zimmerman pulled the trigger and ended a life, why shouldn't he be scrutinized?

The right wing is going far and beyond the events of that night in their attempt to smear Martin's reputation... As if he deserved to die.

That's disgusting. The left's obsession with Zimmerman revolves around the fact that he has never been held accountable for his actions that night, and it's a matter of scrutinizing EVERYTHING about Zimmerman in an attempt to get the truth. There is a huge difference here.

Only one of the two is around today to tell their side of the story, and for whatever illogical reason, that has been casually accepted as the official version of events. There is a big problem with that.

Too many problems and issues surrounding this case it's making my head spin. On it's face, it's blatant institutional racism. That's why so many people are up in arms. Zimmerman and the police have A LOT of explaining to do. 

It's not up to the left to defend Martin (though we're forced to), but the right has taken it upon themselves to unilaterally defend Zimmerman, and they feel like it's up to them to completely assassinate Martin's character. Typical right wing deflection from the real issue.







NB - DJ I appreciate you being a voice of reason (as always) forcing me to take a deep breath and a step back, and try to look at this (and every) issue from all sides. This case, and especially the way people are acting, does make me angry in many ways. It's a charged environment. Not to take anything away from any point I made above, I'll do my best to keep an open mind about this going forward.

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#20
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:47:42 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:

'What you need to know' - RIP 

You don't have to look very far to find the propaganda pylons doing the work of the right wing machine for them, smearing Trayvon and unilaterally defending Zimmerman. 



More from Think Progress to come, I'm sure 


Totally ridiculous. Rush to judgement. Lynch mob mentality. Race baiters out in force. obama jumps in the fray to try to score points.

Finally the facts come out. Kid is a full on punk, who initiated an assault. History of trouble. This time he found it. Bang he's dead.
Not a big loss really.

Zimmerman is owed a big apology though.



On a per capita basis violent crime is FIFTY times more likely BonW than the inverse. That is where the problem lies.
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#21
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:48:52 PM
I had a bit of trouble reconciling differences between the scrutinization of Martin's personal life with Zimmerman's personal life. I hope I did an adequate job, but the rationale behind opposing one and justifying the other is somewhat thin, I admit.

I believe that was your point. It landed. 

However, only one of them pulled a trigger, and ended a life that day. Only one of them has the opportunity to tell their side of the story and defend their version of events. Again, the casual nature of accepting that version of events is a big part of the problem. 

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#22
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:53:17 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:

 

You don't have to look very far to find the propaganda pylons doing the work of the right wing machine for them, smearing Trayvon and unilaterally defending Zimmerman. 





Look no further than post #20 for a case in point example. 



Some people just really aren't that bright. So they get a lightbulb for their evolving stupidity and matchbook credentials. 

I also thank them for proving me right. So, thanks guys 
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#23
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:55:36 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


My Friend, Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin by the police. He did so anyways, and not long after he shot and killed an unarmed teenager.

Why shouldn't he be put on trial for those actions? Let the courts determine if it was 'self-defence' or not.

Probably because it is not against the law to disobey a dispatcher. Just a big fat guess.

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#24
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:57:06 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:

I had a bit of trouble reconciling differences between the scrutinization of Martin's personal life with Zimmerman's personal life. I hope I did an adequate job, but the rationale behind opposing one and justifying the other is somewhat thin, I admit.

I believe that was your point. It landed. 

However, only one of them pulled a trigger, and ended a life that day. Only one of them has the opportunity to tell their side of the story and defend their version of events. Again, the casual nature of accepting that version of events is a big part of the problem. 


to dj obviously, nobody's talking to esplanade that's for sure. 
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#25
Posted: 3/27/2012 5:59:38 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by djbrow:

Really? Is this the Fox News interpretation?

Let me ask you this....what is the usual method of investigation in this case. What don't we have/what wasn't done?

If you don't know the answer, just send an email to Fox news asking the same question so you know how best to answer.


You gotta let the FOX News thing go. You are like a little girl in the school yard.

How the hell do I know what they don't have. I only know what they said they do have.
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