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Author: [Politics] Topic: It didnt take long
DiscoD69 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#51
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:27:46 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KOAJ:


The model in which they used came from the country of origin with TWEAKING...or do you deny this?
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from Great Britain? where they had a 1000 year old monarchy?

no chance

the founders rule was very small limited government with self governance as decentralized as possible

it had never been attempted before. they got a lot of inspiration from John Locke

Such bullshit. They were in favour of representation for the privileged. Slaves couldn't vote for example. You can't use this as a blanket approach, they lived in a different time.

Also, they were not against taxes, they were against taxes going back to England instead of benefiting the colonies. Huge difference.

If you pay attention to the right wing you can see how and why the American history books have been re-written to benefit a certain perception of the world...

How can you think for a second the founders didn't use their collective knowledge and experiences with various forms of government when deciding the future of the States? It took years of careful planning.

All this 'the founders believed in a small, decentralized, gun & bible loving blah blah blah' government is complete non-sense. If you guys want to get serious, come up with a plan that doesn't involve falling behind backwards into the year 1776 
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#52
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:29:17 PM

The model which the framers used .....broke away from Britains/European model when they tweaked it with the three equal branches of Government ............ quite a tweak the equal 3..

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#53
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:43:47 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

The model which the framers used .....broke away from Britains/European model when they tweaked it with the three equal branches of Government ............ quite a tweak the equal 3..


Expansion does not mean the concept was original and not based on an existing organization.

Nice try..
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#54
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:47:30 PM
They most certainly against taxes, in the form you refer to them as. Back then, people knew the difference between TAXES and RENTS. Quite a big difference

Hilarious haw disco claims to have lived in the 18th century, how else would he know how history really went down, and how it has been rewritten by the right wing

Throw in a bible thumping blah blah blah, and amazingly he has run the gammut AGAIN of all the left wing talking points, without providing the slightest trace of individual thought or information to the conversation

Im certain that those in the revolutionary war would be glad to hear that their blood was shed with purpose, so that some of us could sit here and demand that we revert all our progress back to Olde English rule of the 17th century. Just as the Tea Party participants would be pleased to here the leftist slime utilize their name as insult "tea baggers" to those that would still fend for freedom

Well done leftists!!
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#55
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:49:24 PM
How much longer until the extreme leftists start poking fun at the poor and laugh about how government insured rent seeking in housing is a good thing.

Yous wouldnt know the first thing about freedom if it tapped you in the shoulder wearing monica lewinskys dress, and pounded your behind with a strap on
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#56
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:52:07 PM
Tweaking something to me is like when you hang a pic on the wall, it looks straight, but mr level shows thatits off to the slightest pitch

The revolutionary war, and the decleration of independence, arent really tweaking imo. Much closer to blowing the whole thing up when you promise your opressor that one of you will die if they wish to challenge your freedom from their rule

Talk about spinning and dshonesty
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#57
Posted: 12/29/2011 5:58:29 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Expansion does not mean the concept was original and not based on an existing organization.

Nice try..

I know of no former Government that has used the concept of checks and balances to offset the separation of powers .......

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#58
Posted: 12/29/2011 6:52:03 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SarasotaSlim:

I know of no former Government that has used the concept of checks and balances to offset the separation of powers .......


That is an expansion of a concept to add features of interest.

The basic organization was BASED off what they had prior and they modifying things they felt were in error.

Its like remodeling a house you want to improve, update or modify, it was not completely original. 
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#59
Posted: 12/30/2011 1:04:45 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Such bullshit. They were in favour of representation for the privileged. Slaves couldn't vote for example. You can't use this as a blanket approach, they lived in a different time.

Also, they were not against taxes, they were against taxes going back to England instead of benefiting the colonies. Huge difference.

If you pay attention to the right wing you can see how and why the American history books have been re-written to benefit a certain perception of the world...

How can you think for a second the founders didn't use their collective knowledge and experiences with various forms of government when deciding the future of the States? It took years of careful planning.

All this 'the founders believed in a small, decentralized, gun & bible loving blah blah blah' government is complete non-sense. If you guys want to get serious, come up with a plan that doesn't involve falling behind backwards into the year 1776 


exactly

What these guys dont understand is we cant run the country like it was 1776, that is just impossible. We have 300 million people compared to like 13 million. In 1776 they had none of the things our country has to deal with on a daily basis. If our founding fathers were alive today, they wouldnt know what to do.
You have to run the country by whats happening today,not what happened in the past.
I cant believe how many people are trapped in this 1776 mindset.
Everything in life changes and so should the way govt runs.
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#60
Posted: 12/30/2011 1:22:24 AM
Nothing should change about the way the govt runs. To change the way the govt runs is assuring its destruction. I know many of you yearn to suckle at the teat of big government with a disproportionately strong executive branch, that will bestow upon you riches and equality. I promise you it will not work. It has happened thousands of times before America and will most likely happen thousands of times after we self destruct.

The march towards tyranny in the name of safety, comfort or hubris inevitably ends the same.

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#61
Posted: 12/30/2011 3:34:03 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by HoldEm00:

 

he said he didnt know about it, and he didnt write it.

 

 


well, I guess that settles it then

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#62
Posted: 12/30/2011 5:58:13 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by rick3117:

Nothing should change about the way the govt runs. To change the way the govt runs is assuring its destruction. I know many of you yearn to suckle at the teat of big government with a disproportionately strong executive branch, that will bestow upon you riches and equality. I promise you it will not work. It has happened thousands of times before America and will most likely happen thousands of times after we self destruct.

The march towards tyranny in the name of safety, comfort or hubris inevitably ends the same.

exactly

the friggin idiots calling for change have never read the constitution

the idiots do not even understand the declaration of independence

the documents are timeless

everything in life changes and so should the way government runs

that is the biggest friggin joke i have ever read

government has changed the way it runs and look at where we are

and the inept, broken down, slave statists want more

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#63
Posted: 12/30/2011 6:30:02 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Such bullshit. They were in favour of representation for the privileged. Slaves couldn't vote for example. You can't use this as a blanket approach, they lived in a different time. <only property owners had the right to vote>

Also, they were not against taxes, they were against taxes going back to England instead of benefiting the colonies. Huge difference. <taxes from the people to the federal government back to the colonies was a huge no no, hence the enumerated powers and the way US senators were elected>

If you pay attention to the right wing you can see how and why the American history books have been re-written to benefit a certain perception of the world...

How can you think for a second the founders didn't use their collective knowledge and experiences with various forms of government when deciding the future of the States? It took years of careful planning. <you cannot plan freedom. the planning you refer to were the debates over the bill of rights, constitution etc then i agree. those debates were about how to best protect the people from an overreaching federal government...not how to run their lives from Sauron's tower>

All this 'the founders believed in a small, decentralized, gun & bible loving blah blah blah' government is complete non-sense. If you guys want to get serious, come up with a plan that doesn't involve falling behind backwards into the year 1776  <actually no it isnt. ive read some of the ratification debates transcription. thats exactly what they believed and wanted>
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#64
Posted: 12/30/2011 6:32:12 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cd329:



exactly

What these guys dont understand is we cant run the country like it was 1776, that is just impossible. We have 300 million people compared to like 13 million. In 1776 they had none of the things our country has to deal with on a daily basis. If our founding fathers were alive today, they wouldnt know what to do.
You have to run the country by whats happening today,not what happened in the past.
I cant believe how many people are trapped in this 1776 mindset.
Everything in life changes and so should the way govt runs.


im sorry you're wrong.

if we have 400 million people is that ok for government to bend me over until august every year instead of may?

the concept of a very limited federal government and states left to their own devices to compete for settlers and business is a brilliant one. we still have some of that today but very little
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#65
Posted: 12/30/2011 6:33:51 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Even in a monarchy the citizens had reasonable representation, unlike a communist or totalitarian government.

Excessive taxation without fair representation was the flaw which empowered the colonists to revolt.

I disagree with your comment about "small" government, which also reverts back to scale..you cannot have 300 million people, a private sector run amok, a global economy and expect the government to keep as small as when the citizen count was 5% of what it is now. <so the federal government should have more power as the citizenry grows? i dont follow the logic. also, banks, GSEs, autos, etc are not private sector. bailouts negate that status>




sort of like the people in venezuela who have the right to vote


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#66
Posted: 12/30/2011 11:54:25 AM
some of you must be doing bigtime hard drugs, because to even remotely think our govt can run the same way it did in 1776, shows how truly insane some of you are.
We have way differnt problems then they had in 1776
its useless, some of you are gonna say stuck in your time warp
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#67
Posted: 12/30/2011 11:58:46 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KOAJ:



sort of like the people in venezuela who have the right to vote



Nice example..like my kid would say. 

The comment you bolded was also intentionally slighted. The reality is with more of a population comes complexities which do not exist with a small population group. If you think that any organization or group can function when the population increases from 5-10M to 300M I guess there isnt much I can do for you.

All this aside, we are on page 3 of this discussion yet nobody including you is able to answer the glaring question which has been asked and is more important than arguing over the degrees of freedom in Venezuela (but they have more rights than in China and Chavez is just a tad bit more tight fisted compared to the queen in 1770).
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#68
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:04:12 PM
so sick of hearing let business solve our problems. Yeah thats worked out great for our country. The scumbags moved all the jobs overseas so they could use slave labor. Yeah i know our people should work for the same wages other people work for in other countries.

Hate to burst your bubble but if our founding fathers were here today, they would have to adapt to todays world and couldnt do the same things they did in 1776. Thats just plain common sense, which some of you dont know how to apply.
At least some of you supply me with good laughs everyday
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#69
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:15:51 PM
I will agree we did have different problems back in 1776 ..but the founding Farthers didn't have to deal with bloated Government and union pension and health plans back then either.............
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#70
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:17:33 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by wallstreetcappers:


Nice example..like my kid would say. 

The comment you bolded was also intentionally slighted. The reality is with more of a population comes complexities which do not exist with a small population group. If you think that any organization or group can function when the population increases from 5-10M to 300M I guess there isnt much I can do for you.

All this aside, we are on page 3 of this discussion yet nobody including you is able to answer the glaring question which has been asked and is more important than arguing over the degrees of freedom in Venezuela (but they have more rights than in China and Chavez is just a tad bit more tight fisted compared to the queen in 1770).


so in 50 years when there are 400m people in the united states does that mean that the government should have more power?
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#71
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:19:02 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by cd329:

some of you must be doing bigtime hard drugs, because to even remotely think our govt can run the same way it did in 1776, shows how truly insane some of you are.
We have way differnt problems then they had in 1776
its useless, some of you are gonna say stuck in your time warp


up until about 1798, then skip Adams presidency and move right to Jefferson. sounds about right

If there are more people in a country does that mean the government should have more power? thats what you and WSC are arguing
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#72
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:30:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KOAJ:



so in 50 years when there are 400m people in the united states does that mean that the government should have more power?

Where have I suggested more power? can you find one example of me saying that?

I said the government is LARGER, more complex, you take any mention of government and equate that with power.

In this discussion since it wandered to the 1770's for some reason I've said scale, complex, etc which is 100% true. You show me an organization or group that expands to the degree our population has and has similar function and show me that the scale does not change the organization..you cannot do so.

Not part of this discussion I have said several times that regulation is inefficient for the groups being regulated, I do not waiver from that point, which also reverts back to the scale discussion, but has nothing to do with this specific topic.
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#73
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:31:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by KOAJ:



up until about 1798, then skip Adams presidency and move right to Jefferson. sounds about right

If there are more people in a country does that mean the government should have more power? thats what you and WSC are arguing

More accurately, it's how you interpret their argument.

...and herein lies the problem in attempting to debate with the right wing...a la post(s) 54-56...
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#74
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:38:05 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by cd329:

so sick of hearing let business solve our problems. Yeah thats worked out great for our country. The scumbags moved all the jobs overseas so they could use slave labor. Yeah i know our people should work for the same wages other people work for in other countries.

Hate to burst your bubble but if our founding fathers were here today, they would have to adapt to todays world and couldnt do the same things they did in 1776. Thats just plain common sense, which some of you dont know how to apply.
At least some of you supply me with good laughs everyday

"The scumbags moved all the jobs overseas so they could use slave labor."

I think jobs go overseas because of burdensome taxes and onerous regulations. Any alleviation of those would return a degree of prosperity.

There's nothing immoral about wanting to make a profit. When the private sector thrives, the overall standard of living for society will follow.

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#75
Posted: 12/30/2011 12:41:33 PM
Re: post 63, response #1...

I don't understand your point KOAJ, are you saying that we should revert to the way society was organized in 1776 and that only property owners should have the right to vote? 

I said that about slaves because not everyone could vote so how is it a good idea to go back to the ways of 1776 and your response was to point out that only 'property owners' had the right to vote... Well, ok then what about women? Did everybody have equal rights in society in the late 18th century?

So are we using this as a guideline for today, or do we need to change these rules to reflect the differences between then and now?


Please don't bother responding to that question. It's obvious, and we BOTH know the answer. However, I'm afraid of your response just the same...
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