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Author: [Boxing] Topic: Lbs-for-Lbs (as of 11/21/11)
ZOUK send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
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#1
Posted: 11/21/2011 2:35:41 PM
1.Floyd Mayweather Jr
2. Nonito Donaire
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Amir Khan
6. Andre Ward
7. Yuriokis Gamboa
8. Lucain Bute
9. Chad Dawson
10. Tavoris Cloud

Timothy Bradley is an over-achiever to in my book and it's a matter of time when he fights a very skilled veteran.
Klitschko's are excellent heavyweights.
Juan Manuel Marquez proved he has adjusted to the weight, but he needs another fight as he always has had Manny's number.
Adrien Broner is a contender for the list.
Froch lacks the talent. Cotto has yet to show anything spectacular. Margarito hasn't fought anyone good that he has beaten since Cotto. Canelo Alvarez is yet to fight a very good fighter.
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#2
Posted: 11/26/2011 10:55:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by ZOUK:

1.Floyd Mayweather Jr
2. Nonito Donaire
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Amir Khan
6. Andre Ward
7. Yuriokis Gamboa
8. Lucain Bute
9. Chad Dawson
10. Tavoris Cloud

Timothy Bradley is an over-achiever to in my book and it's a matter of time when he fights a very skilled veteran.
Klitschko's are excellent heavyweights.
Juan Manuel Marquez proved he has adjusted to the weight, but he needs another fight as he always has had Manny's number.
Adrien Broner is a contender for the list.
Froch lacks the talent. Cotto has yet to show anything spectacular. Margarito hasn't fought anyone good that he has beaten since Cotto. Canelo Alvarez is yet to fight a very good fighter.

Although his opposition was questionable, it's clear to many he has excellent composure for a young age besides for such exceptional skills!  Due to his competition I wouldn't put him in the top 10 yet, but in a short time he will be near the top of the list!
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#3
Posted: 11/26/2011 11:20:30 PM
Your comments about Broner are laughable.

How do you say that Canelo didnt fight anyone good but you have Broner up on the list.  Both of them didnt fight anyone good to date.
Also, Broner received a gift from Haymon by getting the decision against Ponce De Leon
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#4
Posted: 11/27/2011 10:47:05 AM
Who has either fought? At least Broner fought Ponce and at a young age. Broner has a the speed that Canelo lacks! Canelo reminds me of a Chavez Senior, which is a big compliment... but has yet to prove it. Also, he will have difficulty against fast handed fighters with good footwork. Broner has that natural ability but doesn't use footwork movement much, but he is always in a proper stance to through a knock-out punch. Keep laughing as Broner is moving to the top and Canelo loses to speed tacticians!!!!
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#5
Posted: 11/27/2011 10:47:48 AM
I forgot, Canelo did beat the great Gomez!!!!!!
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#6
Posted: 11/27/2011 11:30:34 AM
once again you are showing your lack of knowledge or you just did not watch the Broner-Ponce fight.  Broner lost clearly.  Only reason he was rewarded with the W was due to his connection to Haymon
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#7
Posted: 11/27/2011 12:16:07 PM
Your giving the cupcake hunting homer Bute way to much love in my opinion. I guess your forgeting the fight he got ko'ed and got the standing 30 count.(andrade) Would he be in the top 10 then? We'll see. I feel some w's coming fading him outside of Canada.
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#8
Posted: 11/27/2011 2:44:58 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by BigPapa21:

Your giving the cupcake hunting homer Bute way to much love in my opinion. I guess your forgeting the fight he got ko'ed and got the standing 30 count.(andrade) Would he be in the top 10 then? We'll see. I feel some w's coming fading him outside of Canada.

especially if he fights Ward
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#9
Posted: 11/27/2011 2:58:18 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by LuckyLuke:

Your comments about Broner are laughable.

How do you say that Canelo didnt fight anyone good but you have Broner up on the list.  Both of them didnt fight anyone good to date.
Also, Broner received a gift from Haymon by getting the decision against Ponce De Leon
 
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#10
Posted: 11/27/2011 7:58:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by LuckyLuke:


especially if he fights Ward


I realize that as I have Ward before Bute. Ward is a natural fighter and will be considered one of the best (or contending #1) lbs-for-lbs for several years to come after he defeats everyone in his weight including Froch. Normally I never bet more than -300 as so many fights are available that offer +odds when they should be a favorite. Also, injuries, headbutts, etc... anything can happen as recently we have seen, but Ward is so slick he is usually the benefactor with dirty tactics (via Holyfield method).  
   Froch will lose to Ward 10-2 rounds. Although I under-estimated him slightly in ratings as I felt he was over-rated early on. I remember wanting to bet Taylor, but after three impressive physical showings against Hopkins (twice) and then Winky, the guy lost stamina. It seems after 8 rounds he is finished. His fast decline started when he fought Spinks,  then Pavlik (twice). Those losses helped odds for his match with the most over-rated Lacy (similar to Andre Berto, but Lacy's first surprise loss to many was at the hands of an excellent fighter as in Berto loss to the talented but heartless Ortiz), which he was hurting Lacy every round and possibly could have finished Lacy but he was aware that if he tried that he wouldn't last the fight. Taylor showed discipline but then fell apart to Froch getting stopped in the last round being ahead on two judges scorecards. He repeated getting knocked out in the 12th round but this fight he was clearly losing.
    I can't seem to find any props available yet for Ward vs Froch. The total round is at 9.5 but Over is -525 and Under is +375. Although it appears about right, getting +400 with a fighter known for tactical headbutts and elbows either may get a mid-round stop, or maybe a DQ if the refs start doing their job.
   On my list after #7 Gamboa, I feel many fighters are so close from #8 to #15 or possibly twenty. I feel the first seven are a clear case, and after that it is very close.
I'm sure people feel Marquez, Bradley, Wonjongkam, Segura, Chris John, Juan Manuel Lopez, Rios, etc... all have a place somewhere in the latter top ten.
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#11
Posted: 11/28/2011 3:55:15 PM

Great list, Broner is going to be good, they defintinly need to step up the comp. from the other night, wouldn't mind seeing him in with Gamboa, JMM, JuanMa, or someone in the top 5 on his division. Alvarez same thing, they need to put him in with better comp. someone like Paul Williams, Angulo, Kirkland, Martinez (after 2 top contenders) or Chavez Jr.

Klitschko Brothers should have done enough to be on list, its not their fault that there isn't no one to fight.

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#12
Posted: 11/28/2011 4:07:50 PM

[Quote: Originally Posted by LuckyLuke]
especially if he fights Ward
[/Quote) I think froch beats bute also. Like to see it in vegas or jersey though. Also, I'd like to see Canelo/kirkland. I'll take the under!!!  Good luck Luke

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#13
Posted: 11/28/2011 6:33:35 PM
Going back to your list to mess with you a bit more

I don't consider Martinez top 3-4 fighter. 
Don't forget he had a Draw against Cintron.
Beat Alcoholic Pavlik that was on his way out after he was brutalized by Hopkins
and Williams who was the next sensation but just lost (although received the W from Haymon :) against Lara.

I think Marquez, Pacman, Angulo, Kirkland,Khan all beat Martinez if they fight.  Won't even mention Floyd in this conversation.
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#14
Posted: 11/28/2011 9:25:12 PM
LuckyLuke: Manny would easily lose to Martinez. It is a match-up Roach would never allow even if the weights were even! He would have beat Pavlik anyday and against Citron he had a clash of styles, but moving to middleweight he carried power but now fights opponents with slower hand speed giving him a bigger advantage. Also, as weight classes go up, besides speed decreasing, stamina is the second major factor. Martinez never seems to get tired as he played soccer (a demanding stamina game depending on position) and a cyclist!!!

cd2010: I was going to write why I didn't include Klitschko's but you are right that they deserve recognition. I just been disgusted with Heavyweights. Lewis was great and dominant. Holyfield before winning Heavyweight Title had a classic fights with Qawi at cruiserweight by winning a 15 rounds split decision on his 12th career fight. People said he would never be a good heavyweight because he was to small and would lack KO power. I guess he proved them wrong being the best action Heavyweight Champion (Tyson was also when they didn't run away) since Joe Frazier (RIP)! Although when Tyson was champ, although they lacked any really other superstar heavyweights, they did have a large crop of good heavyweights. I'm not saying they are elite, but they all had talent and on any given day they could compete (or beat) the best.
Here is a list: Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page, Tony Tucker, David Bey, Tyrell Biggs, James Smith, Tony Tubbs, Carl Williams, Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks, Alex Stewart, Donovan Ruddock, Henry Tillman, Michael Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, Bert Cooper, Gerry Cooney, Buster Douglas (rarely in shape, but clearly good when he fought but was known as a quitter because he didn't have passion for boxing), etc...
Although the Klitschko's were better, atleast you had some parity.
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#15
Posted: 11/28/2011 9:27:08 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by LuckyLuke:

Going back to your list to mess with you a bit more


I don't take it personal and enjoy hearing opinions (even from the peanut gallery)!


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#16
Posted: 11/28/2011 11:14:39 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by ZOUK:

1.Floyd Mayweather Jr
2. Nonito Donaire
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Sergio Martinez
5. Amir Khan
6. Andre Ward
7. Yuriokis Gamboa
8. Lucain Bute
9. Chad Dawson
10. Tavoris Cloud

Timothy Bradley is an over-achiever to in my book and it's a matter of time when he fights a very skilled veteran.
Klitschko's are excellent heavyweights.
Juan Manuel Marquez proved he has adjusted to the weight, but he needs another fight as he always has had Manny's number.
Adrien Broner is a contender for the list.
Froch lacks the talent. Cotto has yet to show anything spectacular. Margarito hasn't fought anyone good that he has beaten since Cotto. Canelo Alvarez is yet to fight a very good fighter.


I rarely see Khan in anyone's pound for pound list but I do believe he belongs there.

As for Cloud he doesn't belong in there unless its a p4p most exciting fighters list. Gamboa for me hasn't reached that level until he beats someone really good. I would have Marquez and Wladimir in mine instead.
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#17
Posted: 11/28/2011 11:38:50 PM
I agree about Cloud, Gamboa has had so many amateur fights (too many because he fights a strategy style like amateurs do) and such exceptional speed, power and reflexes. Marquez is my favorite fighter (and maybe off all-time) so I am biased that I am overly critical of him, like with Tito but I over-rated him. Wladmir has a more conventional style with his 1-2, as his older brother mostly just jabs but he leans so far back in stance. Wlad was called glass-china and his brother a quitter... who's laughing now. I remember a friend saying that Frazier said that the money fighters get paid today they should be ready to die in the ring (I would only agree to that statement because military soldiers do it daily during war and for less than 20k... just a thought to consider). Now when Vitali quit from shoulder injury and was winning the fight and Byrd became champ. People said you don't quit for the Heavyweight Championship no matter what. Well, he said I could have won the fight but destroyed my arm and never fight again, or take the loss and go on to dominate for years and years. Yes fighters should give it all they got, but they should use long term judgement also... when other sports players do it they get support saying it was a smart career move. A boxer does it and he's soft or a quitter.
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#18
Posted: 11/29/2011 3:45:08 PM
How is Donaire so high? 
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#19
Posted: 11/29/2011 9:06:58 PM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by ZOUK:

LuckyLuke: Manny would easily lose to Martinez. It is a match-up Roach would never allow even if the weights were even! He would have beat Pavlik anyday and against Citron he had a clash of styles, but moving to middleweight he carried power but now fights opponents with slower hand speed giving him a bigger advantage. Also, as weight classes go up, besides speed decreasing, stamina is the second major factor. Martinez never seems to get tired as he played soccer (a demanding stamina game depending on position) and a cyclist!!!

cd2010: I was going to write why I didn't include Klitschko's but you are right that they deserve recognition. I just been disgusted with Heavyweights. Lewis was great and dominant. Holyfield before winning Heavyweight Title had a classic fights with Qawi at cruiserweight by winning a 15 rounds split decision on his 12th career fight. People said he would never be a good heavyweight because he was to small and would lack KO power. I guess he proved them wrong being the best action Heavyweight Champion (Tyson was also when they didn't run away) since Joe Frazier (RIP)! Although when Tyson was champ, although they lacked any really other superstar heavyweights, they did have a large crop of good heavyweights. I'm not saying they are elite, but they all had talent and on any given day they could compete (or beat) the best.
Here is a list: Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page, Tony Tucker, David Bey, Tyrell Biggs, James Smith, Tony Tubbs, Carl Williams, Frank Bruno, Michael Spinks, Alex Stewart, Donovan Ruddock, Henry Tillman, Michael Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, Bert Cooper, Gerry Cooney, Buster Douglas (rarely in shape, but clearly good when he fought but was known as a quitter because he didn't have passion for boxing), etc...
Although the Klitschko's were better, atleast you had some parity.

you forgot "Quick" Tillis LOL....Oliver (crybaby) McCall

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#20
Posted: 11/29/2011 9:22:52 PM
Donaire fights the #1 opponent and wins with dominance. How many people have fought within their respective weight class and beating everyone decisively and improves each fight? Yeah you could say Klitschko's, Dawson, Manny & Floyd... but realistically Donaire is more active and fights better caliber fighters and wins with dominance. All the others win, but fight good fighters but don't always win very decisively.

Tillis yeah... McCall didn't progress until the 90's.... I could add Mercer, Morrison (lol), etc... but many just started in the late 80's and competed for championship in the 90s...
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#21
Posted: 11/30/2011 8:43:57 PM
McCall... I think Lewis was wondering if it was real or an act when McCall went cuckoo for Coaco Puffs.
     Also, the Fan Man who came down Holyfield-Bowe II and was beaten unconscious.. "It was a heavyweight fight," Miller (AKA The Fan Man) would joke later, "and I was the only guy who got knocked out." I remember Holyfield stated that after the Monica Seles tennis stabbing, he was getting anxiety with paranoid thoughts of crazy fans.
     One of the greatest most memorable sports plays the "Immaculate Reception"... for those not aware of the intricacies here is a post "The funniest thing about this is that the “Immaculate Reception” was blatantly illegal (at the time), but the referees were scared of what the Steelers’ fans would do if they reversed the call and so let it stand!"
     In sports, they say it causes fans to act irrational. In all the years of college and pro sports, percentage wise they have been very low with major incidents compared to everyday living. Sure we remember the insane events, but what about the other thousand games we watched before without instances.
    I just remember old footage (and new) of stampedes during soccer games killing people. Actually the shopping day of the year "Black Friday" is very similar with insane people. Although it's sick that shopping and trying to save a few dollars comparatively (as prices are lower after Christmas and just before), but you are willing to run over and injured person on the floor with a shopping cart. That is pure SICK. In a crowd, getting pushed by hundreds of people you have to move with the flow are you go down, but having a cart and wheeling over a person adds a new dimension.
   Nice trade off... you get that 42" TV for $200 but all you have to do is maim or kill a person. Smart people, as they figure with all these people I won't get caught... by that new technology called "SECURITY CAMERAS"!!!

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#22
Posted: 12/3/2011 7:25:33 PM
Khan?
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#23
Posted: 2/27/2012 10:43:47 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by LuckyLuke:

Your comments about Broner are laughable.

How do you say that Canelo didnt fight anyone good but you have Broner up on the list.  Both of them didnt fight anyone good to date.
Also, Broner received a gift from Haymon by getting the decision against Ponce De Leon


Luke, do you feel differently regarding Broner?
I know Khan and a few others have dropped, but this isn't a shrewd comment. I'm asking because you make good comments, maybe I disagree, but they are valid.
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#24
Posted: 7/27/2012 6:49:49 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by LuckyLuke:

Your comments about Broner are laughable.

How do you say that Canelo didnt fight anyone good but you have Broner up on the list.  Both of them didnt fight anyone good to date.
Also, Broner received a gift from Haymon by getting the decision against Ponce De Leon


My November Comment:
"Although his opposition was questionable, it's clear to many he has excellent composure for a young age besides for such exceptional skills!  Due to his competition I wouldn't put him in the top 10 yet, but in a short time he will be near the top of the list!"

I think Broner is doing the laughing now.
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#25
Posted: 7/30/2012 7:51:58 PM

My November Comment:
"Although his opposition was questionable, it's clear to many he has excellent composure for a young age besides for such exceptional skills!  Due to his competition I wouldn't put him in the top 10 yet, but in a short time he will be near the top of the list!"

I think Broner is doing the laughing now.

funny how you bring this up. you also commented that bute would beat frock easily...or amir khan at # 5!!! A little highly regarded at the time...

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