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Author: [Penalty Box] Topic: When everythings a crime, everyones a criminal
bill702
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#26
Posted: 9/17/2012 1:50:08 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SteelCash:

You came out insinuating that the 48% of the people in prison for drug related charges were there for smoking pot, and I am the fool?

Yes you are the fool because this is actually true.  Marijuana is the most used illicit drug in the world.  Therefore, there are a lot of people going to prison for it.  It doesn't make sense, but it's true.

http://www.skeptically.org/recdrugs/id8.html

So you go to federal prison for possession? I'm not talking with the intent to sell or anything, but just having a joint on you gets you sent to prison on a first time offense?
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#27
Posted: 9/17/2012 2:02:59 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



I am for the decriminalization of drugs

legalization of all drugs means more laws, which means more punishments, which sounds like more of the same of what we already have, which would be an even bigger problem. no thanks


What is the distinction exactly?  If we just wiped the drug laws off the books wouldn't that be legalization and wouldn't that mean fewer laws?
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#28
Posted: 9/17/2012 3:34:24 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bill702:

So you go to federal prison for possession? I'm not talking with the intent to sell or anything, but just having a joint on you gets you sent to prison on a first time offense?


This is exactly what I am talking about. I know a few people that got busted for marijuana for the first time and no one went to freaking prison over it.
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#29
Posted: 9/17/2012 3:45:39 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by be easy:



48% are there for drug related offenses, so no matter how you want to slice it, thems the facts

you took Scals comment out of context, because i'm certain he knows that NOBODY is in fed prison for marijuana possession, however his comment was in reply to my remark about the moral bankruptcy of society that has ensued because of this inhumane approach to this so called "problem"


Because scalabrine has a problem with turning every thread into racial ones. He has noted several times in the past that too many minorities are doing time in jail for drug use/possession only because they are minorities.


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#30
Posted: 9/17/2012 3:49:04 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SteelCash:

In fact there are very few people that get locked up in prison just for getting caught smoking a joint.

Wrong... we incarcerate about 750,000 people every year for mere possession of marijuana.



So you are telling me that 750,000 people go to prison every year for smoking marijuana? Are you sure that yo don't have arrested and locked up in prison confused?

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#31
Posted: 9/17/2012 3:57:26 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by SteelCash:

This country has to have some type of punishment for drug use/selling

Wrong... Using drugs should not be a crime.  We as citizens should be able to put into our bodies what we please and criminalizing drug use is a violation of our rights.  If I choose to smoke a joint I'm breaking the law but my neighbor can buy enough alcohol at the corner store to kill ten men.  Can we say hypocrisy?  Drug use doesn't hurt anybody except maybe the user.  That's personal choice and should not be a crime.  I'm not a violent criminal when I smoke a bowl or light up a crack pipe (I don't do crack).  I'm not harming others yet the taxpayers are going to pay thousands when I enter the judicial system.  Not only that, I'm going to lose my job, my family is going to struggle, and I might end up being a hardened criminal after spending time behind bars.  This thought process is senseless, it weakens the entire community, costs thousands of dollars, and helps nobody.     



If all drugs were legal, do you have any friggin idea how many people would suffer from drug related deaths? I am talking overdosing, vehicular, etc

So you are saying that drugs should be available at every corner drug store? Does this also include prescription drugs?

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#32
Posted: 9/17/2012 3:59:40 PM
Ok, you are saying using drugs should not be illegal, then how do you get them? What about the dealers? Should they be allowed to sell drugs as long as they agree to pay taxes?


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#33
Posted: 9/17/2012 4:05:05 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by misfit_aka:



you sound like a douche bag...what a weak behind argument..how many laws did you break today? and sorry bro, but its not that simple...its takes time for a culture to change...especially when there have been laws and economic policies designed to ensnare the ppl of that culture for CENTURIES (and yes, even to this day)...


Well first off, I know your backgroud here, so I won't even get into that. And I didn't break any laws today. How is it a weak argument? Many minorities have had no trouble adapting to join the rest of society in the past 50 years, so why are there still so many complaining and making excuses in the year 2012? Making excuses only holds one's self back and that goes for just about anything that you experience in life.
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#34
Posted: 9/18/2012 2:12:05 AM
SwishSwish... drunks get drunk and kill about ten to fifteen thousand people every year just in the U.S. Men, women, and children. No big deal though I guess. Alcohol consumption alone kills another 85 to 100 thousand. Drunks are loud and obnoxious and often violent and out of control. Cannabis smokers are very chill, in control, not aggressive in the least, and not loud. The negative impact alcohol has on society is a thousand fold larger than that of cannabis. If you argue this you're an idiot because it's a fact. Don't even try to compare the two. It's already clear to me that you have no idea what you're talking about.
All the cannabis smokers I know are very normal people. I really can't speak about the people you know or the people you hang with. I like to debate with facts BTW. It's also a fact that some people (professionals that research this topic for a living) consider alcohol to be the worst drug in the world because of it's volume in which it is consumed and the damage it does.
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#35
Posted: 9/18/2012 2:49:13 AM
Slovak... I don't think there would be any dealers if prohibition ended. They wouldn't be competitive, and after all, there are no dealers selling Budweiser on the streets. One of the huge benefits of ending prohibition would be the end of dealers selling to our kids. Studies have unequivocally shown that adolescents have an easier time getting their hands on weed than they do alcohol. They need ID to get alcohol and of course they don't have proper ID.

As for prescription drugs, I honestly don't know what to say on that. Very good question you brought up there. Pharmaceuticals would love to see their drugs sold everywhere but... I don't know. Gotta give that some thought and do some research. The heroine and other stuff we could sell in select stores. With the extra tax money the addicts could get quality (and free) counseling and there are some hallucinogens (Iboga just to name one) that have proven to be extremely successful in the treatment of heroine addiction. But of course, that's illegal too.

With the stores selling the drugs, they're sure to be pure, and people sharing dirty needles would be a thing of the past. All the stores would have clean needles. This is a huge problem too. There are so many people that share needles and end up HIV positive. This would end that. These people are human beings and they made some bad decisions but they don't want to be addicts. They need help and if given a second chance many of them would make the most of it. Throwing them in jail does nothing for anyone except the people that invested in that prison. Isn't it fucked up that people make money when people go to jail? Privatized prisons... who the darn came up with that concept?
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#36
Posted: 9/18/2012 3:06:20 AM
As for your post #31, I think you're forgetting that most peoples' drug habits won't change. I don't what they legalize. I'm smart enough and I have enough self esteem that I wouldn't start snorting cocaine and shooting up with heroine. And I think most everyone else is of the same mold. Did you know that Portugal legalized heroine? Do you know what happened? The number of addicts went down by 50%. And they had a huge problem with heroine. Fear mongering is a terrible approach to the whole drug thing. If you just educate adolescents on the effects of drugs they'll make the the right decision most of the time. But we as a nation just say things like "Don't do drugs or you'll grow up to a life of crime if you don't end up dead". That's fear mongering and they know it's bullshit. It actually ENCOURAGES them to try the drug.
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#37
Posted: 9/18/2012 3:07:39 AM
Didn't proofread that :(
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#38
Posted: 9/18/2012 3:14:09 AM
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#39
Posted: 9/18/2012 3:22:35 AM
Overdoses would decrease too because these stores would have (and this could be made a law) qualified personnel that would inform the customer on recommended use amount. If he tells someone to snort no more than 10 grams of something, people will generally listen. Surely there will be overdoses here and there. This wouldn't be a solution with no faults, but when you consider the amount of lost lives soley due to prohibition, it's no contest. Drug casualties could literally decrease by 10,000%. Ask the people of Central America about this. The death toll has turned that country completely upside down. Bodies in the hundreds of thousands over the years turning up everywhere.
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#40
Posted: 9/18/2012 3:46:56 AM
My apologies for not being able to come up with more recent numbers but in 2004 there were about 44,000 people in federal and state prisons for marijuana offenses so I actually committed a typo earlier. The 750K is the arrest number.

I read an article that stated that we spend about a billion a year as taxpayers to incarcerate these people. I believe these are 2009 figures, and they are from reports from the U.S. Dept. of Justice. To put that in perspective the FBI initially asked for 1.5 billion to respond to the 911 attacks.
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#41
Posted: 9/18/2012 8:48:09 AM

     Please bear with me here as I'm about done ranting.  I just wanted to take a second to provide some legitimate numbers...

Police prosecuted 858,408 persons for marijuana violations in 2009, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s annual Uniform Crime Report, released today. The arrest total is the second highest ever reported by the FBI, and marks a 1.3 percent increase in the number of arrests reported in 2008 (847,864).

According to the report, marijuana arrests now comprise more than one-half (approximately 52 percent) of all drug arrests reported in the United States. A decade ago, marijuana arrests comprised just 44 percent of all drug arrests.

Approximately forty-six percent of all drug prosecutions nationwide are for marijuana possession.

http://blog.norml.org/2010/09/15/incarceration-nation-marijuana-arrests-for-year-2009-near-record-high/

American taxpayers are now spending more than a billion dollars per year to incarcerate its citizens for pot. That’s according to statistics recently released by the U.S. Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics.

According to the new BJS report, “Drug Use and Dependence, State and Federal Prisoners, 2004,” 12.7 percent of state inmates and 12.4 percent of federal inmates incarcerated for drug violations are serving time for marijuana offenses. Combining these percentages with separate U.S. Department of Justice statistics on the total number of state and federal drug prisoners suggests that there are now about 33,655 state inmates and 10,785 federal inmates behind bars for marijuana offenses. The report failed to include estimates on the percentage of inmates incarcerated in county and/or local jails for pot-related offenses.

http://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2007/02/22/1-billion-per-year-to-jail-marijuana-users/

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#42
Posted: 9/18/2012 9:23:49 AM

     In Canada, if you get caught with six plants and it's determined that you were growing for trafficking purposes, your minimum mandatory sentence will be twice as long (six mos.) as somebody that lures a child to watch porn or exposes himself on a playground.  If you get caught with 201 plants, you will face a harsher mandatory minimum sentence than somebody that rapes a toddler. 

     Now of course the rapist will most certainly get a longer sentence and die in prison, but this still doesn't excuse the fact that Canada actually made the minimum shorter.  In their eyes, I guess you're more of a nuisance to society if you grow marijuana than the guy that rapes a three year old child. 

     How disturbing is that?

     Source:  Cannabis Prohibition:  A War on the People

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#43
Posted: 9/21/2012 9:21:15 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by depeche2:



What is the distinction exactly?  If we just wiped the drug laws off the books wouldn't that be legalization and wouldn't that mean fewer laws?


well, you ought understand the legalese better then I.

When i hear decriminalization, i understand that to mean scrapping all the drug laws from the books. Often parlayed with systems that treat addiction as a health issue rather then a crime against society (imagine if we treated sugar users like we do pot smokers)

When i hear legalization, i understand that to mean even more laws and regulations, similar to the systems in place in states that allow MMJ. You need a license for producing, a license for distributing, rules on how much and how many plants one can grow, rules upon rules, which if/when they are broken, come with penalties similar to what we have today. The worst part of legalization imo is the system it enshrines as to who profits from the trade, and how much the end consumer is forced to pay

i've illustrated the math on covers before that shows that MMJ has a 100,000% mark up . Rarely do people bother to ask why this is, or who benefits. I don't see that ginormous amount of economic rent as a necessity, and it is just punitive punishment to the user forced upon them by government action.

i can grow marijuana in my garden right along with sunflowers and tomatoes and corn, so why would you suggest that the government need regulate it any differently?

around here, you buy a dozen ears of corn for 2.50. With the same space and energy that it takes to produce that corn, i can grow a lb of weed instead, yet 2,500 is cheap for a lb

2.50.00
vs
2,500.00

why is it necessary to force end users to pay such an exorbitant mark up??

and how in the world do prohibitionists or supporters of legalization not realize that all the problems surrounding drug use stem from that economic rent? If you remove the private profiteering via economic rent in the equation, you solve the problem

FWIW, i believe you can/should apply that same line of reasoning to all government action. Governments exist to control the flow of resources, so cui bono from privatized economic rent-seeking?

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#44
Posted: 9/21/2012 9:27:34 AM
everything is relative, so we know that the present plan of action brings about the current set of results (mass murder, overflowing prison population, empowerment to the gangs/cartels)

if you view this as a problem, there is only one solution, and it's to remove the profit side of the equation

If the government wanted to end the war on drugs, then they should be incentivizing mass production of marijuana so as to remove the profiteering, you take away the money, you take away the power from the gangs/cartels and the criminal aspect

how much worse off would society be then compared to today? THere would be less dangers, and better information, and if people still viewed 'drug' usage such as smoking grass as a problem, then they could utilize avenues to treat it for what it is, a health issue, not a friggin crime

The people that benefit from the current system sure as hell would never want to see that happen (judges, lawyers, private for profit prisons, big Pharma, the court circuit profit center ie probation officers, companys that do drug testing and sell products related, all the layers of police state that fund their pursuit of the so called criminals)
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#45
Posted: 9/21/2012 12:07:23 PM
All good points, I am for instant and wide spread legalization of Marijuana.
I have not used in many years but could probably still get some within an hour and 2-3 phone calls.
I still choose not to use either way.
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#46
Posted: 9/22/2012 4:12:23 PM
would be interesting to see a Hamsterdam type experiment from The Wire
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#47
Posted: 9/23/2012 11:51:05 AM

     A kid, probably in his early 20's just told me he lost a friend.  His name was Curt.  He drank too much and died of alcohol poisoning.  He was 18.  His friends threw him out of the car and left him on his mother's lawn.  I guess he was discovered several hours later. 

     You watch a football game and see dozens of beer commercials.  Once every 2 hours on average somebody 21 and younger dies from alcohol use.  About 4,600 every year in the U.S.  It's my opinion that you can blame some of this on prohibition and the propaganda surrounding marijuana that people get shoved down their throats.  We all know that MJ has never killed anybody. 

     I always drank in my 20's (I could have died several times) and heavily partly because weed was illegal.  Why do something illegal right?  I assumed it was bad for you because, why question it?  I thought it was common knowledge.  I've had many good times drinking don't get me wrong, but weed is the best.  I now know it's smarter, safer, healthier, and it's a better high.  I haven't quit drinking, but I generally think alcohol sucks.  If it disappeard I wouldn't be upset at all. 

    

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#48
Posted: 11/26/2012 4:59:07 PM
Drugs are bad mmmkay ?
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#49
Posted: 11/26/2012 5:37:53 PM
Steel Cash is Telling the Truth
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#50
Posted: 11/26/2012 5:38:45 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by scalabrine:

Nice to see you actually post something sensible. I've posted on this topic many times with detailed explanation,

Part of the 'moral bankruptcy' you are referring to is the number of minorities who are locked up due to drug offenses (specifically minor ones like marijuana possession), which make up the lion's share of inmates.

Of course, people like yourself and members here choose to completely ignore this even though there are peer-reviewed books written on the topic easily available to yourself and others, in addition to what I've posted.

No mind though, this is mainly about tax dollars only because our current generation is allowing racism and racial preference to fade out consciousness (as you've alluded to in the past).

Carry on...

 

you know its hard to take anything you say seriously when every thought starts off with something like this. It really is pathetic nowadays that people still use their race as an excuse as to why they are in the place they are.

People doing hard time for marijuana smoking, get fuckin real

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