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Author: [Mixed Martial Arts] Topic: What kind of sick human beings are preventing the Edgar line from climbing?
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#1
Posted: 2/17/2012 12:34:54 AM
A pick'em -110/-110 each way line is insane. I can perhaps understand not wanting to bet Edgar, but I can't imagine anybody putting considerable money on Henderson at a minus or slightly + line.

Henderson was sloppy at times against Guida, got outboxed for 10 minutes against Varner until Varner unceremoniously ran into a guillotine when there was no reason for him to pursue a takedown, and didn't even beat Pettis, who he probably should've been able to, given Pettis didn't exactly light the world on fire against Jeremy Stephens.

Henderson has also been dropped many times and if he can't catch Edgar with a choke in a scramble, I don't see any avenue for him to win.  

Edgar -110 all day, in what will probably end up being my biggest bet of all of 2012.
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#2
Posted: 2/17/2012 1:00:36 AM
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#3
Posted: 2/17/2012 1:43:23 AM
I don't get how this isn't at the very least Edgar -160, the same line Miller was against Henderson when they fought.

Edgar's a righteous 2-1 favourite if you ask me.
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#4
Posted: 2/17/2012 8:56:10 AM
I hope u are right.. I wasn't sure who to take but u make some valid points
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#5
Posted: 2/17/2012 11:54:34 AM
You bring up Varner which happened over 2 years ago.... but fail to bring up what Maynard has done to Edgar twice in the last 13 months.

Maynard, who couldn't hurt a fly standing absolutely pummeled Edgar on the feet for periods of time in their fights.  If he had any type of finishing ability this Edgar/Hendo fight wouldn't even be happening.

Edgar drops to FW after this fight.  


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#6
Posted: 2/17/2012 12:49:20 PM

I think you're right, and I jumped on it

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#7
Posted: 2/17/2012 2:29:56 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by sharpstick:

You bring up Varner which happened over 2 years ago.... but fail to bring up what Maynard has done to Edgar twice in the last 13 months.

Maynard, who couldn't hurt a fly standing absolutely pummeled Edgar on the feet for periods of time in their fights.  If he had any type of finishing ability this Edgar/Hendo fight wouldn't even be happening.

Edgar drops to FW after this fight.  


So you want to forget the Varner fight because it was over 2 years ago, but then you want to act like Grey can't improve.  And want to compare his striking now to what it was 2 years ago.  Doesn't seem to make sense to me.  With 2 title fight training camps under his belt, he had to improve big time.

Bendo doesn't offer much standing.  Some hard leg kicks he does have. 

You want to cut Edgar down for getting hit.  I'd rather pump up the fact that he has a chin and can recover enough to win fights after being rocked.  Bendo rocks no one, and even if he does, Frankie is proven he can take a shot..

I don't see your logic in acting like getting hit and taking huge shots and coming back from it is a bad thing.  If anything, that is only 1 more aspect that makes Frankie very good.  He has a good chin.

Instead of saying how Grey found his chin a few times, why not bring up the fact that he beat BJ Penn in a striking match twice. 

Bendo offers nothing in this fight other than size.  Which Frankie has dealt with his whole career.
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#8
Posted: 2/17/2012 2:30:32 PM
^darn, this is why we need an edit button.
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#9
Posted: 2/17/2012 4:06:22 PM
*Well seeing as 13 months is more recent than 2 years ago, it holds a little more clout and relevance to current form.

*Never said Gray couldn't improve, but did he improve so much in these ever important title fight camps....that he bailed on that camp?

*Bendo doesn't offer much standing, but he isn't your typical fighter that is going to try and beat you standing.  He actually fights smart.  I don't think anyone expects Bendo to KO Frankie....

*So getting hit and getting rocked is now a wanted skill set in MMA?  That's the first I heard of this.

*Beating BJ Penn holds less and less clout everytime he continues to fight.  Wasn't there a thread going around here after the Diaz fight about how bad BJ Penn is, and isn't even a quality fighter anymore?

*Bendo offers nothing but size?  I guess you're new to MMA?

The line is a pick em for a reason.  Don't overthink this fight.  It's actually very simple.
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#10
Posted: 2/17/2012 4:26:49 PM
No, getting hit isn't a wanted skill.  Having a great chin and recover is very valuable though.  I thought that was obvious.  But i guess not. 

Yea, lets right off BJ Penn.  A guy who outstruck and beat up Diaz in teh first round.  Went to a draw with the then consesus #2 WW in teh world.  All while not even belonging at that weight.  Lets dismiss what was the best LW ever to live because he lost a couple fights at WW.  Ok.  You can do that, I won't.  BJ Penn is still better today than anyone Bendo has ever beat.

Yea, he offers nothing but size, and I'm not as new to MMA as you are.  To MMA betting, sure.  Not actually watching MMA.  Bendo offers no power standing, and not as good of a striking game as Edgar.  Bendo is a good wrestler, Frankie is a division 1 wrestler who is better.  Frankie trains with Renzo Gracie everyday of his camps....Bendo has caught Cerrone and sub'd a few white belts.  Big deal.  I don't see any advantage for Bendo other than size.  He is a good well-rounded fighter with skills, but what does he do better than Edgar?

Ok, I'll take the awesome breakdown of "this iis a pickem for a reason" to heart.  You have totally convinced me to go the other way.

Heres a tip: Throwing smiley faces after you think you made a good point doesn't strengthen your argument any. 
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#11
Posted: 2/17/2012 4:59:54 PM
I see Maynard/Edgar similar to Manny/Marquez in boxing.  They have had good fights.  They match up well.  Both guys know how to fight the other guy. 

It is impressive that Frankie can beat 2 of the top 3 LWs in the world...pretty much twice.  I know Maynard had a draw, but he came back and pretty much won that fight after the 1st round.  It is hard to beat top talent twice.  

I feel people have underrated Frankie coming into each fight.  As if they just believe he really isn't that good.  He has some of the best boxing in the division.  Very good wrestling.  And he is a brownbelt under Renzo Gracie.  He has a chin.  He is 2nd to no one in cardio for the division.  Frankie is proving to be considered with the top P4P fighters. 
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#12
Posted: 2/17/2012 6:02:30 PM

discrediting edgars wins over bj and meynard is an argument not worth partaking.

frankie edgar is everything that is good about mma fighting.

i agree with ts. edgar should be at least  -150 or so similar to what he was against maynard in his last fight.

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#13
Posted: 2/17/2012 9:01:03 PM
I'm riding with ben henderson in this one and putting some money on him..not a lot..i'm not a high roller. I see this fight as basically a pickem fight and  the line reflects that. I dont think either one greatly outmatches the other in any aspect of MMA..i'm just a fan of henderson and wouldnt be surprised if frankie wins.

     You discredited ben by using mma math..."he lost to pettis who looked like this against this guy " and so on...but you never mentioned that he beat jim miller (was on 7 fight win streak) who everyone thought was next in line ..derailed that train for the moment.He is also the only guy to stop Donald Cerrone.
      Frankie is the king of the hill right now..but he's not exactly Jon Jonesing his opponents. He's had to rematch his last two opponents due to a draw and controversy. Since you went back to the varner/henderson fight..go back to how frankie got to the title... half the guys arent even in the UFC anymore ..matt veach,hermes franca and sean sherk is basically MIA.

  I like frankies underdog story and how he keeps winning when people are counting him out and im definitely not..but when you compare skillsets and opponents they've beat..they are about dead even..  just my opinon.

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#14
Posted: 2/18/2012 12:00:39 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by jonnyg4508:

No, getting hit isn't a wanted skill.  Having a great chin and recover is very valuable though.  I thought that was obvious.  But i guess not. 

Yea, lets right off BJ Penn.  A guy who outstruck and beat up Diaz in teh first round.  Went to a draw with the then consesus #2 WW in teh world.  All while not even belonging at that weight.  Lets dismiss what was the best LW ever to live because he lost a couple fights at WW.  Ok.  You can do that, I won't.  BJ Penn is still better today than anyone Bendo has ever beat.

Yea, he offers nothing but size, and I'm not as new to MMA as you are.  To MMA betting, sure.  Not actually watching MMA.  Bendo offers no power standing, and not as good of a striking game as Edgar.  Bendo is a good wrestler, Frankie is a division 1 wrestler who is better.  Frankie trains with Renzo Gracie everyday of his camps....Bendo has caught Cerrone and sub'd a few white belts.  Big deal.  I don't see any advantage for Bendo other than size.  He is a good well-rounded fighter with skills, but what does he do better than Edgar?

Ok, I'll take the awesome breakdown of "this iis a pickem for a reason" to heart.  You have totally convinced me to go the other way.

Heres a tip: Throwing smiley faces after you think you made a good point doesn't strengthen your argument any. 


*I won't "right" off BJ Penn.... but let's be honest he is 3-4-1 in his last 8 fights.  A win over BJ isn't worth what it used to be.  I mean is outstriking Nick Diaz for one round an excellent accomplishment?  If I recall it wasn't a 1 round fight, and Condit apparently just outstruck him for 4 of 5 rounds.

*To display this awesome recovery he had to get hit.  He got hit from a very rudimentary boxer on numerous occasions.    When making an argument FOR Edgar, you probably don't want to hear yourself say "well he got rocked NUMEROUS times by Maynard, but he did recover."

*Bendo offers much more than size.  But in all reality the size will likely be a big part of this fight.  He is stronger, and more athletic as well.  Skill set wise, the only real advantage in this fight is Edgar's hand speed.  Every other technical skill is extremely close.

I don't need to come on here and give a detailed breakdown to convince you.  I could honestly really care less who you bet.  But I can tell you from experience, the line is set this way so Bendo doesn't destroy the books when he wins.  However, if you're in Vegas I invite you to come take plus money on Edgar when we put our line up.  

*The emoticons are put on by covers to enhance the experience of posting and reading.  I am well aware it doesn't change the content of my typing.
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#15
Posted: 2/18/2012 12:01:55 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Qncyk1:

discrediting edgars wins over bj and meynard is an argument not worth partaking.

frankie edgar is everything that is good about mma fighting.

i agree with ts. edgar should be at least  -150 or so similar to what he was against maynard in his last fight.


Who is discrediting his wins over either?  

Saying a win over BJ Penn doesn't mean as much now as it did 5 years ago isn't discrediting....it is fact.

And I didn't mention anything about a win over Maynard not being meaningful.
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#16
Posted: 2/18/2012 3:12:14 AM

just my 2 cents about a few things, I think happy Maynard is terrible and the line opened at henderson +120(at pinnacle atleast) , so there has been lots of $ going in on henderson

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#17
Posted: 2/18/2012 9:50:38 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by sharpstick:


Who is discrediting his wins over either?  

Saying a win over BJ Penn doesn't mean as much now as it did 5 years ago isn't discrediting....it is fact.

And I didn't mention anything about a win over Maynard not being meaningful.

a win over bj at 155 means a whole lot more than a win over bj at 170...now or five years ago.

bj penn is arguably the best 155 ever to fight in mma.

edgar unequivocally beat him twice.

edgar also provided mma fans with four memorable fights over the last two years.

thats prime chuck liddell stuff.

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#18
Posted: 2/18/2012 10:16:01 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Qncyk1:

a win over bj at 155 means a whole lot more than a win over bj at 170...now or five years ago.

bj penn is arguably the best 155 ever to fight in mma.

edgar unequivocally beat him twice.

edgar also provided mma fans with four memorable fights over the last two years.

thats prime chuck liddell stuff.


He didn't unequivocally beat him the first time.... seeing as there was so much controversy they put on an immediate rematch.  

Memorable fights have nothing to do with winning your next fight either.  I honestly have no idea exactly what points you're trying to make that are legitimate for an Edgar win against Ben Henderson.


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#19
Posted: 2/18/2012 10:28:02 AM

im not saying that edgar is going to win only that edgar should be the favorite...the purpose of this thread.

and i disagree with the ts as there are better plays for biggest bet for 2012 as bendo has proven to be a five round fighter.

i had frankie clearly winning the first fight as well as the rematch. speaking of such, ordering an immediate rematch does not always quantify that the original fight had a controversial decision.

diaz/condit is a good example of this.

i think most people, including myself, simply felt that penn overlooked frankie and would win a rematch.

 

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#20
Posted: 2/18/2012 11:29:34 AM
Ben will outweigh Frankie by 10# come fight time and at equal weight Ben is already stronger.

That will make the diff. in this fight because most skill sets are pretty equal. Ben is bigger, stronger and way more athletic and with his cat like speed will close the gap into the range he wants. That is fight at CLOSE QUARTERS pinning Frankie ag. the cage and taking Frankie down. Now he may not keep him down long, but will do it enough to make it easier for the judges to give Ben round after round.

What Frankie can win with is his boxing, but there is not much to chose from, in that cat. between the 2 and Ben is not going to let too much of that happen, even though Ben stands the only chance, slight as it is, of knocking out Frankie, with Frankie have 0 chance of KOs ben, who has never been KOed and with Franks piter pater striking, skillfull as it is, its not happening.

The stronger, faster, better ath. grinder prevails here.

4-1 3-2 4-1 UD BENSON HENDERSON NEW LW CHAMPION
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#21
Posted: 2/18/2012 11:56:53 AM
Frankie's pitter patter striking left gray laying on the mat asking the ref what day it is. Yet gray was supposed the KTFO of edgar Ben won't be any bigger than gray. Gray was supposed to throw around Frankie yet I remember Frankie flying 3 ft in the air, carrying Maynard with him and slamming him to the mat. Even though Bendo beat miller it was highly publicized that miller was sick. If Bendo can catch Edgar and secure him to the cage he can win. I don't see it happening. Not for 5 Tds. Edgar is too quick all over. Quicker than anyone at LW Too good a wrestler. I think he wins 4-5 rounds in a decision
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#22
Posted: 2/18/2012 11:59:43 AM
QUOTE

Originally Posted by remember1118:

I'm riding with ben henderson in this one and putting some money on him..not a lot..i'm not a high roller. I see this fight as basically a pickem fight and  the line reflects that. I dont think either one greatly outmatches the other in any aspect of MMA..i'm just a fan of henderson and wouldnt be surprised if frankie wins.

     You discredited ben by using mma math..."he lost to pettis who looked like this against this guy " and so on...but you never mentioned that he beat jim miller (was on 7 fight win streak) who everyone thought was next in line ..derailed that train for the moment.He is also the only guy to stop Donald Cerrone.
      Frankie is the king of the hill right now..but he's not exactly Jon Jonesing his opponents. He's had to rematch his last two opponents due to a draw and controversy. Since you went back to the varner/henderson fight..go back to how frankie got to the title... half the guys arent even in the UFC anymore ..matt veach,hermes franca and sean sherk is basically MIA.

  I like frankies underdog story and how he keeps winning when people are counting him out and im definitely not..but when you compare skillsets and opponents they've beat..they are about dead even..  just my opinon.

not saying that i favor edgar but miller fought that fight with a kidney infection.

and millers not the type of of guy to make excuses.

 

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#23
Posted: 2/18/2012 1:05:32 PM
I wonder if Frankie will ever get the credit he deserves?

He beat the best LW ever twice, a guy that looked unbeatable at lightweight.  He KO'd Maynard, a guy who never lost a fight before that.  He beat Sherk easily.  He has beat Jim Miller, Tyson Griffin, Bocek.  He has basically beat everyone.  Yet he is still picked against each fight.

I don't understand it. 

I think he has way better striking than Bendo.  And more punching power when he wants to use it. 

I think he has better wrestling.  On paper he does.  He rarely gets out-wrestled even being the much smaller guy.

I think his BJJ game is just as good if not better than Bendo's, he trains with Renzo Gracie everyday. 

Like I said before...Bendo has size.  Something that isn't new at all to Frankie.
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#24
Posted: 2/18/2012 1:14:41 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by sharpstick:


Who is discrediting his wins over either?  

Saying a win over BJ Penn doesn't mean as much now as it did 5 years ago isn't discrediting....it is fact.

And I didn't mention anything about a win over Maynard not being meaningful.


How does Penn destroy....DESTROY Diego.  While everyone calls him unbeatable at LW after the fight.  Then 4 months later Edgar beats him.

Tell me how it is fact that it didn't mean as much when just 4 months later he looked amazing and everyone said no one would beat him at LW?

How does that make any sense at all?  Basically you should say "well the win vs. BJ doesn't mean as much as it would have 4 months prior"

Which is ridiculous.
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#25
Posted: 2/18/2012 1:19:24 PM
1 fight people want to call BJ the best LW ever and unbeatable.  4 months later people want to discredit Edgar for winning because "it isn't the same BJ"

People will do anything to discredit Edgar and take away from what he has done.  Even if it means making ridiculous things up. 

Funny how people can think so highly of a guy (BJ) then 4 months later act like he isn't that great. 

Hey, anything to make your argument look better. 
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