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Author: [Politics] Topic: Battleground America - One nation, under the gun
DiscoD69 send a private message View Space | Blog | Friends | Playbook |
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#101
Posted: 4/27/2012 2:33:49 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by bowlslit:

You still haven't addressed how you're gonna round up these illegal guns. Law abiding citizens will not give them up willingly. Then you turn millions of law abiders into criminals and that means agents will die in the process.


At least now you are trying to enter an adult discussion. More of the quoted and less of the garbage rhetoric I deleted, please.  
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#102
Posted: 4/27/2012 2:51:28 PM
To address your point. My first reaction is "You've created (and are still creating) ONE HELL OF A MESS! You clean it up" I'm very interested to see how that would/could possibly all work. Then again, Nobody said ANYTHING about an all-out ban and militant confiscation now did they? 

To get to the point... it would have to be in this mind-frame:

 'ALL guns' (in theory) are NOT illegal.

Using Canada as an example, you have to give and take and weigh the differences between *smart* gun law (public safety) and people's ability to own firearms (freedoms.. I suppose). 

Guess what guys, you can still hunt in Canada. Yes, with a gun. Does that mean we should make sure we're arming everybody with all types of dangerous weapons, pistols, extended mags etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.? 

No. 

It should be very hard to obtain something proven to be so dangerous. Just like poison or hazardous material, just like bomb-making material. Just like anything that has the potential to compromise public safety. You don't make it easy as easy as possible to get this stuff, you make it difficult, or at least control it, so it can be managed. 

This isn't some freak idea. This is common sense. 
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#103
Posted: 4/27/2012 4:37:33 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


The point is when you manufacture and distribute millions of guns it's nearly impossible to keep them in the hands of responsible gun owners...

And they end up being used in various crimes, and the occurrence of gun use and gun crime skyrockets. 



Because you lean left, I will say: 'C'mon!' 

Distribute guns?  Really?  I just bought a hand gun for $500.....it wasn't exactly distributed.  

You know who is buying up most of the guns?  Law abiding citizens looking to protect themselves.  And the bad guys and gals know that.  

I work in a small office (12 people) and 2 others and myself carry. I am happy that the other 2 do.  

You miss the point...responsible gun owners hate confrontation and violence.  But they want to be able to defend themselves is there is no other way out.  

And they end up being used in various crimes

By bad guys who are intent on doing harm....which is going to be the case even if they banned guns.  
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#104
Posted: 4/27/2012 5:01:18 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:

To address your point. My first reaction is "You've created (and are still creating) ONE HELL OF A MESS! You clean it up" I'm very interested to see how that would/could possibly all work. Then again, Nobody said ANYTHING about an all-out ban and militant confiscation now did they? 

To get to the point... it would have to be in this mind-frame:

 'ALL guns' (in theory) are NOT illegal.

Using Canada as an example, you have to give and take and weigh the differences between *smart* gun law (public safety) and people's ability to own firearms (freedoms.. I suppose). 

Guess what guys, you can still hunt in Canada. Yes, with a gun. Does that mean we should make sure we're arming everybody with all types of dangerous weapons, pistols, extended mags etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.? 

No. 

It should be very hard to obtain something proven to be so dangerous. Just like poison or hazardous material, just like bomb-making material. Just like anything that has the potential to compromise public safety. You don't make it easy as easy as possible to get this stuff, you make it difficult, or at least control it, so it can be managed. 

This isn't some freak idea. This is common sense. 

We've created a problem or a huge mess?

I don't agree.

Percentage of gun problems where I live is miniscule.

The problem is the culture not the guns. That is the reality.

Where I'm from you create a solution based on the root cause of any problem you don't go after the symptoms. Guns are not the root of the problems regarding gun violence.

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#105
Posted: 4/27/2012 5:55:06 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


Distribute guns?  Really?  I just bought a hand gun for $500.....it wasn't exactly distributed.  

You know who is buying up most of the guns?  Law abiding citizens looking to protect themselves.  And the bad guys and gals know that.  

I work in a small office (12 people) and 2 others and myself carry. I am happy that the other 2 do.  

You miss the point...responsible gun owners hate confrontation and violence.  But they want to be able to defend themselves is there is no other way out.  

And they end up being used in various crimes

By bad guys who are intent on doing harm....which is going to be the case even if they banned guns.  

Let me ask you this, do you think there is a difference between a 'legal' gun and a 'responsible' gun owner? Or are they one in the same in your mind? If a gun is purchased legally does that mean it will never be used in a crime?

Can anybody provide the statistics that convey the percentage of guns used to commit a crime that were purchased legally?

Because in order for your argument to be valid, the number would have to be '0' (zero) correct?

I don't think I'm missing the point, I know exactly what you are saying. I'm not convinced you understand my point however. 
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#106
Posted: 4/27/2012 5:57:32 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


By bad guys who are intent on doing harm....which is going to be the case even if they banned guns.  


Agree. 

So IMO, it's better to not flood society with guns and have 1 or 2 armed robberies & let the police handle it... than flood society with guns, have a 1000 armed robberies, and all hell break loose (high crime rates, murder rates etc.)

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#107
Posted: 4/27/2012 6:08:02 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:


Distribute guns?  Really?  I just bought a hand gun for $500.....it wasn't exactly distributed.  

You know who is buying up most of the guns?  Law abiding citizens looking to protect themselves.  And the bad guys and gals know that.  

I work in a small office (12 people) and 2 others and myself carry. I am happy that the other 2 do.  

You miss the point...responsible gun owners hate confrontation and violence.  But they want to be able to defend themselves is there is no other way out.  

And they end up being used in various crimes

By bad guys who are intent on doing harm....which is going to be the case even if they banned guns.  

Hutch I'm just curious, did you happen to read the article I linked to open the thread?
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#108
Posted: 4/27/2012 6:14:40 PM
Disco you hit the nail on the head
Using Canada as an example, you have to give and take and weigh the differences between *smart* gun law (public safety) and people's ability to own firearms (freedoms.. I suppose). 

 Safety   Vs.   Freedom.  

Americans will mostly side with Freedom, that is how we have always been, that is how our country was founded, and that is how it will remain.  


One of my favorite quotes. 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-B Franklin. 

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#109
Posted: 4/27/2012 6:18:22 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Hutch I'm just curious, did you happen to read the article I linked to open the thread?

I gave him the cliff notes.

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#110
Posted: 4/27/2012 7:02:57 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


Agree. 

So IMO, it's better to not flood society with guns and have 1 or 2 armed robberies & let the police handle it... than flood society with guns, have a 1000 armed robberies, and all hell break loose (high crime rates, murder rates etc.)


Disco the gun registry law hasn't lowered crime but then Toronto may be a different story.
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#111
Posted: 4/27/2012 7:11:07 PM
Disco I been to Minnesota and North Dakota many times never had any problems.
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#112
Posted: 4/27/2012 7:33:31 PM
Disco have ask why the concern over this if it's illegal gun trafficking well Obama has been caught sending guns into Mexico.
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#113
Posted: 4/27/2012 10:10:11 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:

It's not 'liberal spin' - one has nothing to do with the other.

However, IF strict prohibition of civilian gun ownership made the problem 1000x worse, then I would say yes, another method to address the problem is needed.

However, what if it made the problem 1000x better 


You tried it your way, and millions of people have either been killed or affected by gun crime over the last couple decades. Which is called a failure. People are really suffering because of this policy. Ask a person who lost a loved one to gun violence. The problem is there are way to many of them.

So... maybe it's time to try another way, and it will either succeed or you will have to try something else. 

What you have right now is not working, and the dismissing this is nothing more than denial.

it is liberal spin

penalizing legal citizens for an ideological fantasy

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#114
Posted: 4/28/2012 1:09:25 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by rick3117:

Disco you hit the nail on the head
Using Canada as an example, you have to give and take and weigh the differences between *smart* gun law (public safety) and people's ability to own firearms (freedoms.. I suppose). 

 Safety   Vs.   Freedom.  

Americans will mostly side with Freedom, that is how we have always been, that is how our country was founded, and that is how it will remain.  


One of my favorite quotes. 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-B Franklin. 

Love the quote, one of my favorites
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#115
Posted: 5/1/2012 7:58:17 AM
disco, couldn't you make all your same arguments about cars? Only they are less a necessity, more a luxury, and much more deadly and damaging to a society?
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#116
Posted: 5/1/2012 1:07:50 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by DiscoD69:


The point is when you manufacture and distribute millions of guns it's nearly impossible to keep them in the hands of responsible gun owners...

And they end up being used in various crimes, and the occurrence of gun use and gun crime skyrockets. 
Because you lean left, I will say: 'C'mon!' 

Yes, it's impossible to make sure guns purchased legally don't get into the hands of criminals and irresponsible gun owners.  But I'm a betting person and I'd say the bad folks would get their hands on illegal guns if the legal ones weren't available.  I don't have stats and I don't think you do either.  

Do you really think that people commit more crime because guns are more conveniently accessible?  

Think about it....marijuana use.  Do you really think legalizing it would cause a bunch of people to start using who normally don't use?  I don't buy that at all.  The people who use just wouldn't have to sneak around any more.  

You really want you government to deny your legal right to carry a firearm when someone else could illegally carry one and hold up a convenience store where you may be shopping.....and walk into the back room where you may be hiding and murder your unprotected behind?

No thanks.  I'll take my chances with more guns out there.  
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#117
Posted: 5/1/2012 1:28:49 PM
...Even if the Trayvon Martin case does not really illustrate the shortcomings of Florida’s law, it is possible that eliminating the duty to retreat in public places, combined with reinforcing the “castle doctrine” (which applies to home invasions) and extending it to vehicles, has encouraged avoidable escalations of violence. The law’s opponents note that the annual number of justifiable homicides in Florida (excluding police shootings) nearly tripled after the law was passed in 2005, from an average of 12 from 2000 to 2004 to an average of 35 from 2006 to 2010.

Still, you would expect to see an increase in homicides deemed to be justified even if the law were working as intended. The crucial question, which the task force appointed last week by Gov. Rick Scott presumably will ask, is whether these homicides should be deemed justified.

It is worth noting that Florida’s violent crime rate, which fell 12 percent in the five years before the “stand your ground” law was enacted, fell 23 percent in the five years afterward. Since 1987, when Florida adopted a nondiscretionary carry permit law that the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence blames for “year after year of carnage,” the state’s violent crime rate has been cut nearly in half.

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#118
Posted: 5/1/2012 2:47:14 PM
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
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#119
Posted: 5/1/2012 2:51:54 PM
You tried it your way, and millions of people have either been killed or affected by gun crime over the last couple decades. Which is called a failure. People are really suffering because of this policy. Ask a person who lost a loved one to gun violence. The problem is there are way to many of them.
 
==============================
 
That, is the triumph of emotionalism over reason.
 
You have no facts to back these assertions.
You have no validity to these claims (note: Gun ownernship in America is the highest ever recorded. Note: crime is decreasing and homicide is no longer a top cause of death)
 
Yet you continue to make them.
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#120
Posted: 5/1/2012 2:53:39 PM

Using Canada as an example

===============

Except I don't want to live in Canada, don't have Canadian values, and don't really care what the gun laws of Canada are.

You should adopt a similar approach.

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#121
Posted: 5/1/2012 3:38:51 PM
The problem is there are way to many of them.
_____________

I say the problem is that people are idiots.  They bang their fist on the hood of a car that comes close to them and shake it at the driver.....IDIOT.  They get strangled by their husband and go out to their car, grab a gun, AND HEAD BACK INSIDE....IDIOT.  They are told by the cops to stop following a person, yet they do anyways and get in a scuffle....IDIOT.  

So because these people were STUPID, I lose my right to carry a gun?  Not on your life.  

If you take away these types of killings (the seat of the pants reaction, an incident that escalates because someone feels "disrespected"), the murder rate would be in the basement. Since I know I'm not going to be party to that stupidity, I'd like to keep my right to carry a gun.  If the stupid people can't be....well.....less stupid, then they can face the consequences.  I know I won't be one of those.  And if you're smart, you won't either.  So why fret so much?
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#122
Posted: 5/1/2012 3:46:48 PM
stupidity is becoming more abundant every day.....the dumbing of America....and soon, poof, there will be no more America just 300+million sheep

I am afraid of Keyser Soze


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#123
Posted: 5/1/2012 4:25:42 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by HutchEmAll:

The problem is there are way to many of them.
_____________

I say the problem is that people are idiots.  They bang their fist on the hood of a car that comes close to them and shake it at the driver.....IDIOT.  They get strangled by their husband and go out to their car, grab a gun, AND HEAD BACK INSIDE....IDIOT.  They are told by the cops to stop following a person, yet they do anyways and get in a scuffle....IDIOT.  

So because these people were STUPID, I lose my right to carry a gun?  Not on your life.  

If you take away these types of killings (the seat of the pants reaction, an incident that escalates because someone feels "disrespected"), the murder rate would be in the basement. Since I know I'm not going to be party to that stupidity, I'd like to keep my right to carry a gun.  If the stupid people can't be....well.....less stupid, then they can face the consequences.  I know I won't be one of those.  And if you're smart, you won't either.  So why fret so much?

Emotional control is certainly a virtue.

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