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Author: [Poker] Topic: Is online poker fixed????
NFLNightmares send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
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#1
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:58:22 PM
 
Guys EVERY thread in this forum no matter the topic ends up being a debate on whether on line poker is rigged. It is one of the reasons the poker forum on covers is so weak.
 
I am at the WSOP right now, I rarely play large tournaments but I have many friends in big time poker, and have for over a decade. In the last 17 years I have missed attending 2 wsop.
 
To the guys who think on line poker is fixed:
 Have you ever signed on to  Pokerstars. party poker or FT?  The number of games going on and the rake being accumulated is incomprehensible. These companies literally make millions of dollars in profit EVERY DAY. They are not like normal large companies. They have so little overhead because the company is basically just computers.   The idea that the big 3 would cheat is not logical. Let me give you an example. We are all gamblers in this forum. Let say one of us was a real sharp sports bettor and gave you 5 guaranteed winners every day. Every day all five of them won, GUARANTEED.  Would you every day after that fifth winner pick one late game by yourself and then bet all your winnings and bankroll on that game to double up???  NO OF COURSE NOT. You would darn your hot wife, kiss your kids and go to bed and wait till tomorrows five winners are given to you.
That is the situation the ownership of major poker websites are in. Why would they risk their empire, and it is an empire, by cheating?  Now if you give the standard answer "greed" you are incorrect.  We all on some level are greedy. But we also balance it with common sense. I want to double my bankroll but I am not going to bet the whole thing on the washington nationals tonight. Because as great as doubling my bankroll would be, I do not want to risk everything I have. The owners of these web sites know this far better then I do. The scanal at AP/UB  is the reason that site is not one of the big boys anymore. If I recall correctly there was another site that had a problem at the very beginning of on line poker. It was called paradise poker or something and they were one of if not the first site. The reason they are not one of the big 3 is the same reason AP/UB is not, they got caught cheating. Even if the owners of these sites were the greediest scum bags on the planet cheating would not be an intelligent option. One thing we have to agree on is the guys that built these companies are intelligent.
 
 
I do not believe cheating happens in even 2% of the games on any of the big three sites.
 
 
To all the people who think on line poker is legit:
You must admit first off that if someone in this very forum said to you a few years back AP/UB was cheating and gave you 1/10 of a story that related to what actually happened we all know what your answer would have been. You would have called them a losing player and told them they had no clue. You would have been 100% wrong. I agree by and large on line poker at major sites is legit. However cheating is going on, multi account players, poker bots, etc etc all happen.  The biggest cheating of course is people who play at sites together from different locations and share card info or "squeeze players".  We all know the sites try on some level to monitor this. But if  you play mid level stakes 100-500 sit n gos for instance, you see many of the same faces so being at the same tables with your coconspirators does not raise red flags. All you need to do is buy prepaid phones to talk to your friends in other cities. You can have 3-4 guys at a table and it of course does not guarantee a profitable session but it does give you a very substantial edge.  I do not believe online poker is by and large crooked but there is substantial cheating going on.   
 
 
These are just my opinions and I respect anyone who disagrees. But I will say  certain things that are facts.  Everyone who thinks on line poker is legit is not a shill for the house.  Also everyone who thinks it is fixed is not a kook or a losing player. 
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#2
Posted: 6/30/2009 1:40:08 PM
People think poker is something you're good at it - and once you have perfected this art you should be unstoppable, automatic, Jordan shootings FT's. When they really don't understand that when you perfect your game you will still be winning only 55%.
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#3
Posted: 6/30/2009 1:59:16 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by AceDeuceShipIt:

People think poker is something you're good at it - and once you have perfected this art you should be unstoppable, automatic, Jordan shootings FT's. When they really don't understand that when you perfect your game you will still be winning only 55%.

 

I dont think you can EVER put a number on winning percentage.  If you are a real good player, playing great you can beatup the average 1-2 game. But the average 50-100 game has people who make very few major mistakes in a session.

You obviously follow poker Ace you know that at a final table there is always 2-3 people that played 1/10 as good as a dozen players on the rail.

Poker is so much about running good in the short term also.  Look at this years WSOP Lisandro, Ivey and V lunkin killing them.  Daniel and philhelmuth, alan cunningham  and a lot of other big pros doing zippo this year. 

One other thing, we all watch the WSOP on TV, you see players still alive late in the main event, or winning bracelets in smaller events.

Go to pokerpages.com or another data base and put those players names in, 95% of the ones you never heard of have done nothing since last years lucky run, and never will again. They all come the next year and get one or two VERY minor cashes if anything. 

 

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#4
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:18:14 PM
Yes - but if that is the case then why do we play? If the people we try to emulate can't win on a consistent basis than why do we try to copy them? I've strayed away from NLHE and started my PLO adventures, Micro Stakes for now.
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#5
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:27:15 PM
you have to be aware now of players usually no problems only isolated incidents of certain people have happened
 
 
 
 
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#6
Posted: 6/30/2009 3:22:52 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by AceDeuceShipIt:

Yes - but if that is the case then why do we play? If the people we try to emulate can't win on a consistent basis than why do we try to copy them? I've strayed away from NLHE and started my PLO adventures, Micro Stakes for now.

 

What we "watch" is tournament play.  What does consistent mean ace? If a guy wins 1 tourney and makes the 2-3 final tables in a year that is a lucrative successful year. That means the LOSE 40 tournaments a year. In this game 5% success is virtually impossible.  If a guy has a dream year like vitaly or jeff this year, which means they are playing awesome AND catching breaks, they can live off endorsements and the winnings for a decade.

Ace, look at the WSOP leader board for the year, go down to the bottom pages you see HUGE names that have very minor cashes in 1-2  tourneys. The guys played 20 events or more it just was not their year.  They did not play great AND got unlucky.  Next year guys like helmuth and daniel Negranuea and allen cunningham may have huge years, not this year, and its all over in a week.

 

 

 

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#7
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:19:34 PM
NFL.   It's not the owners.  I'm sure the Scheinberg's making 100 million a year are happy with what they got(have they sold PS yet I'm outta the loop)  But for example  fulltilt,  when your software company begins in Cali then moves to ireland, corporate in aruba, and the servers are in canada(same place as UB btw) you cant tell me some programmer/security consultant  making 60k a year isn't trying every second to find a way to cheat the site out of millions The alarming thing about UB was the website security was so deaf, dumb, and blind.  It took the players to catch it.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 6:47:34 PM
Vegas,
 
  On the UB issue not only was security blind, the STILL won't penalize the cheaters. They to this day will not name them.
I agree people may be trying to cheat, but trying and doing is 2 different things.
 
May I ask you a question?   Do you remember the breeders cup fix of 2-3 years ago??
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Posted: 6/30/2009 7:13:11 PM
Remember hearing about it, dont remember the details.
 
How about something like this.   I am a computer programmer on the inside at a large reputible website.  I have access to an account that lets me see all the cards for security purposes.  My best friend is an umemployed college student(lets say Tom Dwann)  I call him up and say hey Tom I'm gonna give you access to this account and lets start cheating people.  But lets be smart about it and dont make any suspicious calls and lets keep our avg win rate just above the norm so we dont arouse any suspicion.  In two years we will both be multi-millionares and can retire.   And even if we do get caught no one can do anything about it, what do you say???
Do you think this cant happen?
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#10
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:15:27 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by VegasMaxx:

Remember hearing about it, dont remember the details.
 
How about something like this.   I am a computer programmer on the inside at a large reputible website.  I have access to an account that lets me see all the cards for security purposes.  My best friend is an umemployed college student(lets say Tom Dwann)  I call him up and say hey Tom I'm gonna give you access to this account and lets start cheating people.  But lets be smart about it and dont make any suspicious calls and lets keep our avg win rate just above the norm so we dont arouse any suspicion.  In two years we will both be multi-millionares and can retire.   And even if we do get caught no one can do anything about it, what do you say???
Do you think this cant happen?


Possible but really unlikely, if that was the case why would they Tom Dwan have Pro's which own stake in FTP play HU for 1000/500 stakes?
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Posted: 6/30/2009 9:00:37 PM
Vegas,
 
  Computer programmers rarely have access to account codes that let them see cards.  The ownership knows how valuable that info could be in the wrong hands. I think the only possible scenario could be a programmer leaving a "trap door" to get access. Then IF and it is a big if, the door is undetected, you may be ready to roll.
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Posted: 6/30/2009 9:29:17 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by AceDeuceShipIt:



Possible but really unlikely, if that was the case why would they Tom Dwan have Pro's which own stake in FTP play HU for 1000/500 stakes?
sorry didn't make that clear.  I was in no way calling dwan a cheater, just using him as an example.
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#13
Posted: 7/7/2009 2:20:56 PM
all the years at tilt-stars or partypoker never no problems but at smaller sites could be vulnerable just do not play real $$ at ultimate or absolute poker
recently a bud of mine got his account frozen for using bots at partypoker good to know they are takin this serious
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#14
Posted: 7/8/2009 12:59:09 AM
QUOTE

it eels fixed at times, buti made a fortune doing it so i dont think so, now online BJ, that seems to be fixed if i progressively double my bet when i lose i will lose 20 hands in a row its sick

Originally Posted by NFLNightmares:

 
Guys EVERY thread in this forum no matter the topic ends up being a debate on whether on line poker is rigged. It is one of the reasons the poker forum on covers is so weak.
 
I am at the WSOP right now, I rarely play large tournaments but I have many friends in big time poker, and have for over a decade. In the last 17 years I have missed attending 2 wsop.
 
To the guys who think on line poker is fixed:
 Have you ever signed on to  Pokerstars. party poker or FT?  The number of games going on and the rake being accumulated is incomprehensible. These companies literally make millions of dollars in profit EVERY DAY. They are not like normal large companies. They have so little overhead because the company is basically just computers.   The idea that the big 3 would cheat is not logical. Let me give you an example. We are all gamblers in this forum. Let say one of us was a real sharp sports bettor and gave you 5 guaranteed winners every day. Every day all five of them won, GUARANTEED.  Would you every day after that fifth winner pick one late game by yourself and then bet all your winnings and bankroll on that game to double up???  NO OF COURSE NOT. You would darn your hot wife, kiss your kids and go to bed and wait till tomorrows five winners are given to you.
That is the situation the ownership of major poker websites are in. Why would they risk their empire, and it is an empire, by cheating?  Now if you give the standard answer "greed" you are incorrect.  We all on some level are greedy. But we also balance it with common sense. I want to double my bankroll but I am not going to bet the whole thing on the washington nationals tonight. Because as great as doubling my bankroll would be, I do not want to risk everything I have. The owners of these web sites know this far better then I do. The scanal at AP/UB  is the reason that site is not one of the big boys anymore. If I recall correctly there was another site that had a problem at the very beginning of on line poker. It was called paradise poker or something and they were one of if not the first site. The reason they are not one of the big 3 is the same reason AP/UB is not, they got caught cheating. Even if the owners of these sites were the greediest scum bags on the planet cheating would not be an intelligent option. One thing we have to agree on is the guys that built these companies are intelligent.
 
 
I do not believe cheating happens in even 2% of the games on any of the big three sites.
 
 
To all the people who think on line poker is legit:
You must admit first off that if someone in this very forum said to you a few years back AP/UB was cheating and gave you 1/10 of a story that related to what actually happened we all know what your answer would have been. You would have called them a losing player and told them they had no clue. You would have been 100% wrong. I agree by and large on line poker at major sites is legit. However cheating is going on, multi account players, poker bots, etc etc all happen.  The biggest cheating of course is people who play at sites together from different locations and share card info or "squeeze players".  We all know the sites try on some level to monitor this. But if  you play mid level stakes 100-500 sit n gos for instance, you see many of the same faces so being at the same tables with your coconspirators does not raise red flags. All you need to do is buy prepaid phones to talk to your friends in other cities. You can have 3-4 guys at a table and it of course does not guarantee a profitable session but it does give you a very substantial edge.  I do not believe online poker is by and large crooked but there is substantial cheating going on.   
 
 
These are just my opinions and I respect anyone who disagrees. But I will say  certain things that are facts.  Everyone who thinks on line poker is legit is not a shill for the house.  Also everyone who thinks it is fixed is not a kook or a losing player. 
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#15
Posted: 7/8/2009 10:38:47 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by gers:

all the years at tilt-stars or partypoker never no problems but at smaller sites could be vulnerable just do not play real $$ at ultimate or absolute poker
recently a bud of mine got his account frozen for using bots at partypoker good to know they are takin this serious

I agree the "big 3" are untouchable from a management perspective. Meaning the ownership would never be that crazy. Keep in my though AP/UB is a HUGE site. It is top 5 possibly, top 10  for sure. So that they did what they did is major.

I remember just a few years ago UB/AP was bigger then pokerstars AND full tilt.  The scandal really hurt them and I am glad it did

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#16
Posted: 7/14/2009 6:24:18 PM
define fixed lol.  i notice this more in heads up tournaments, but it seriously seems like some guys i will have to get them to call all their chips behind on the river to beat them.  ive won at online poker over the years, not as much as i would like to, but sometimes i just get the feeling they want the other guy to win.
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#17
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:43:12 AM
to me online poker is not remotely legitimate.  its an online business! the casino/house always wins. real or fake..hustlers baby!
 
if you have 2 people who dont know how to play poker at all get online and play a SNG against each other, then they are both equal in skill. this SNG will go on until one beats the other in some top pair vs middle pair type of hand. but when you have an experienced player who wins 9/10 SNG's on avgerage they play vs the guy who never played before. I would bet the 9/10 guy will only win 5/10. I am not suggesting luck, but suggesting their winning % will drop. when you have two similiar skilled leveled players battling each other, one usually doesnt have an advantage over another.. its all based on VARIANCE. 
the goal of online poker sites is to make money, through rake and through buyin's. the more a player plays, the more online makes. would they make more money if the player loses every SNG? NO, the more they lose, the less moeny they have to play with...the less likely they will play again.. unless they are on tilt and want to make back what they lost.  Online poker sites can only stay profitable long term if they keep the avgerage player on the same winning % as a person with a professinal skill level. i know this makes it sound like i am saying online sites program the avgerage player to win as much as the professional players...but no
im not saying its fixed, rigged, programmed, or somehow controlled by a person behind a computer. though i am saying they must have some kind of logarithms coded into the servers to track each player's activity. to keep hot streaks cooled off and to warm up cold streaks...etc
how else can it happen? are people who consistenly lose stupid enough to keep depositing, and redepositing $1000s ? each thinking that they are not a losing player, only the luck of the draw. they got me this time, but ill get them next time..


well thats my rant for the night. someday it will be proved somehow im sure
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#18
Posted: 7/20/2009 3:33:59 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by thecrisp9:


 
  but when you have an experienced player who wins 9/10 SNG's on avgerage




This statement right here shows how clueless you are about online poker. Please stop  commenting on things you obviously are VERY inexperienced in. God the friggin exaggerations and bullshit you friggin dionks come up with to try and justify your losing is friggin ridiculous
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#19
Posted: 7/20/2009 4:28:40 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by thecrisp9:




well thats my rant for the night. someday it will be proved somehow im sure




Your cluelessness was just proven
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#20
Posted: 7/20/2009 7:47:07 PM
the big games are rigged-people playing parteners at same table with cell phones gang rape the suckers
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#21
Posted: 7/25/2009 2:14:49 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by NFLNightmares:

 
Guys EVERY thread in this forum no matter the topic ends up being a debate on whether on line poker is rigged. It is one of the reasons the poker forum on covers is so weak.
 
I am at the WSOP right now, I rarely play large tournaments but I have many friends in big time poker, and have for over a decade. In the last 17 years I have missed attending 2 wsop.
 
To the guys who think on line poker is fixed:
 Have you ever signed on to  Pokerstars. party poker or FT?  The number of games going on and the rake being accumulated is incomprehensible. These companies literally make millions of dollars in profit EVERY DAY. They are not like normal large companies. They have so little overhead because the company is basically just computers.   The idea that the big 3 would cheat is not logical. Let me give you an example. We are all gamblers in this forum. Let say one of us was a real sharp sports bettor and gave you 5 guaranteed winners every day. Every day all five of them won, GUARANTEED.  Would you every day after that fifth winner pick one late game by yourself and then bet all your winnings and bankroll on that game to double up???  NO OF COURSE NOT. You would darn your hot wife, kiss your kids and go to bed and wait till tomorrows five winners are given to you.
That is the situation the ownership of major poker websites are in. Why would they risk their empire, and it is an empire, by cheating?  Now if you give the standard answer "greed" you are incorrect.  We all on some level are greedy. But we also balance it with common sense. I want to double my bankroll but I am not going to bet the whole thing on the washington nationals tonight. Because as great as doubling my bankroll would be, I do not want to risk everything I have. The owners of these web sites know this far better then I do. The scanal at AP/UB  is the reason that site is not one of the big boys anymore. If I recall correctly there was another site that had a problem at the very beginning of on line poker. It was called paradise poker or something and they were one of if not the first site. The reason they are not one of the big 3 is the same reason AP/UB is not, they got caught cheating. Even if the owners of these sites were the greediest scum bags on the planet cheating would not be an intelligent option. One thing we have to agree on is the guys that built these companies are intelligent.
 
 
I do not believe cheating happens in even 2% of the games on any of the big three sites.
 
 
To all the people who think on line poker is legit:
You must admit first off that if someone in this very forum said to you a few years back AP/UB was cheating and gave you 1/10 of a story that related to what actually happened we all know what your answer would have been. You would have called them a losing player and told them they had no clue. You would have been 100% wrong. I agree by and large on line poker at major sites is legit. However cheating is going on, multi account players, poker bots, etc etc all happen.  The biggest cheating of course is people who play at sites together from different locations and share card info or "squeeze players".  We all know the sites try on some level to monitor this. But if  you play mid level stakes 100-500 sit n gos for instance, you see many of the same faces so being at the same tables with your coconspirators does not raise red flags. All you need to do is buy prepaid phones to talk to your friends in other cities. You can have 3-4 guys at a table and it of course does not guarantee a profitable session but it does give you a very substantial edge.  I do not believe online poker is by and large crooked but there is substantial cheating going on.   
 
 
These are just my opinions and I respect anyone who disagrees. But I will say  certain things that are facts.  Everyone who thinks on line poker is legit is not a shill for the house.  Also everyone who thinks it is fixed is not a kook or a losing player. 


Awesome stuff NFL

The people who say online poker is fixed are the guys who do not know how to play. I do way better in live games then online, but that's because I can obviously read players better in live games. Also, I sometimes get reckless when playing online which is something that is obviously my fault.

The people who claim that it's rigged are just making excuses to explain why they suck. It's amazing when you see guys on this site posting garbage like "OMG I LOST WITH ACES!!!" and then you see that they bet like 1/5 of the pot on every street. People like this deserve to lose.
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