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Author: [Boxing] Topic: 91 Fight Winning Streak (13 HOF Bouts During)
ZOUK send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
ZOUK
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#1
Posted: 3/19/2012 6:30:07 AM
You though it was Ray Middleton, Kirk Alyn, George Reeves, Johnny Rockwell, Bob Holiday, David Wilson, Jeff East, Christopher Reeve, John Haymes, Gerard Christopher, Dean Cain, Tom Welling, Brandon Routh, Matthew Bomer, Henry Cavill all combined for the parts of Superman. You are somewhat correct, he was super, and a man, in the ring Kryptonite did not exist.
The man who portrayed Superman in the Ring was Sugar Ray Robinson.
The topic of 91 win streak has a little super info. During that stretch, 13 bouts were HOF opponent fights (6 fighters as he fought most several times). Here is the information I added to my post on Julio Cesar Chavez 89-0... I give credit to DeHoyos as he was the original starter for most Chavez posts. Here it is below and this link is also provided!

Before starting, let's play what if... yes his first loss ever (pro or amateur) to LaMotta, and he beat Wilson only to rematch and beat Lamotta (much bigger man; averaged 12lbs per bout over Sugar; the man's best years were not even on film; he was practically forced out of welterweight as he was so dominate).
Now to the What if... say Sugar wins that bout, including his amateur career would be 213 straight wins with a 72% KO percentage.

"Let's start very early. Robinson was 85–0 as an amateur with 69 of those victories coming by way of knockout, 40 in the first round.
He turned professional in 1940 at the age of 19 and by 1951 had a professional record of 128–1–2 with 84 knockouts.
JCC had a HOF career and the 89-0 streak. By no means am I taking that away or belittle the man, but Robinson had a 91 win streak. Also, this period was stacked with talent.

NOW WE GET TO THE BEST PART... During that 91 streak ( including losing to Turpin and winning the rematch) and a few fights after (96 Total)...BRACE YOURSELF:
13 BOUTS DURING THAT TIME PERIOD WERE (AND NOW) FIGHTS AGAINST HALL OF FAME FIGHTERS (IT WAS 6 FIGHTERS AS HE FOUGHT MOST SEVERAL TIMES).
Here is a fighter that lost to LaMotta (considered a top 50 pound-for-pound on 99% of lists), his streak was ended by Randy Turpin (HOF), only to rematch him without any fights before, and 2 months later he stopped Turpin in the 10th round. His next two fights were Olson (he KO'd in their previous bout and Graziano (also HOF fighters) was stopped in round three. So that is 3 HOF opponents consecutively and 3 consecutive wins.
If a boxer's fights History made Ripley's Believe or Not, you would have to say Sugar Ray Robinson's was the ultimate fiction. I will add a final piece of information regarding his losses."
BTW- Just a year before the LaMotta loss, he beat HOF fighter Zivic back to back... so although it was just prior to the streak, that would make 15 HOF bouts against 7 HOF fighters!!!! I will stop here because it would take too many words, and it's much better watching the film of him, even though his most dominate period was before they had him filmed.

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ZOUK send a private message View Space | Friends | Playbook |
ZOUK
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#2
Posted: 3/19/2012 6:33:19 AM
I actually did this post quickly and more than likely made errors. Regardless, those who know, or now know, any errors corrected would be appreciated, but unlike me filled with errors... Sugar didn't need any correcting!
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thesoulpurpose
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thesoulpurpose
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#3
Posted: 3/22/2012 7:27:33 PM
at welter robinson was damn near perfect, he was such a big puncher at that weight to go along with everything else( which I think goes under the radar) I would say that at 147 only tommy hearns and maybe tito trinidad ( trinidad was an even bigger puncher at 154) were bigger punchers at that weight. but to me it's pretty obvious that he would of beaten both of these men.  at middleweight he won a lot of fights with his brain, using ring generalship and a very good and consistant jab. he was also one of the greatest combination punchers who ever lived and to do it with power is rare, there are very few big punchers in boxing history who were great combination punchers as well.  the only one that could rival robinson in this department is ricardo lopez. or maybe hearns. to top it all off robinson's chin was a solid as well. is he the most well rounded fighter ever?  perhaps,   you could say that ricardo lopez was more well rounded or maybe salvador sanchez, or ray leonard,  but they did not accomplish as much as robinson did, sanchez did not have enough time and lopez fought in weight classes that most of the world do not care about and leonard had under 40 fights,   robinson  fought in an era where fighting 10- 15 times per year was considered normal, so he would obviously have a chance to accomplish more, so when ranking fighters from different era's he will be given the edge over guys who fought only 30 to 50 times,   historically robinson left his mark as the best ever and in the end taking all things into consideration, I would say he deserves it. ( although I know armstrong and langford would think different and sometimes I do as well, but today it's robinson.)

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thesoulpurpose
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#4
Posted: 3/22/2012 7:46:10 PM
I also forgot to mention roberto duran, when he was at lightweight was their ever anyone better than that?   also DESIRE is the number 1 thing in boxing and if floyd had more of it? (unfortunatly he doesn"t)
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#5
Posted: 3/24/2012 1:18:12 AM
Floyd's is more about business and money. Sometimes when fighters are brought up in the family business, although they have an early start and successful, many either burn out or don't enjoy it like others. Buster Douglas, grew up under his father who wanted his son to be a fighter, but Douglas really wanted no part of boxing. The man had great talent, size, strength, and despite what others think of him, he had no desire to be a fighter. Claiming himself he was to lazy to be a fighter, but anyone is lazy doing something they feel obligated to do but don't enjoy.
Fighting Tyson, he was 231lbs of muscle. He always had solid fundamentals, great natural abilities that never shined as he was known as a quitter. I don't buy that, he was a man, caught in a life position doing something he didn't enjoy, or more so he somewhat hated. That's impressive when he goes up against at the time considered unbeatable (and the most feared fighter off all time, along side Liston, Langford, etc... but media labeled him that during the baddest man on the planet.
Douglas had all the tools, at 6'4" and a reach 83", he had long arms from the shoulder. He had a strong jab, and intelligent as a fighter.
DESIRE... as you stated was never there, only for the fight of his life, and he dominated. Regardless of Tyson being sick, having a bad camp, getting knockdown in sparring, etc...Tyson himself although only 23, was past his prime. People use the word prime for the optimal age for athletics, but boxing is more mental. Tyson got sloppy and went from a Frazier body man, to a one punch head man! People use to laugh when I say by 1990, Tyson was past his prime even though in 1986 at age of 20 he was the youngest Heavyweight Champ, but his style and DESIRE faded fast. After jail, he said he was totally wiped and knew it, but had to act and hype up the sales. The one thing ignorant boxing fans say is how Tyson had a weak chin! WTF... now I know they are clueless. When Lennox would hit people with that straight overhand right at 80-90% maximum output, every fighter would take a nap. Tyson after round two, took so many shots it was amazing he survived 8 rounds. Even Lennox (if you find the sound clips), stated he felt like his hand was going through Tyson head and wondered if he was going to break his hand on this guys skull. Tyson regarded as one of the hardest hitters, could take punches and I would put him in the top 1% of chins. Especially a man fighting for a paycheck, and no desire, it's impressive he was able to withstand such punches. Just look at Tyson when then down in the 8th from the right hand (the way it happened and the motion reminded me of Joe Louis when he hit his victims with that shot and they crumbled), Tyson was not unconscious, and I'd venture to say he was very alert, but had no DESIRE to continue.
Back to Floyd, you are 100% right about his desire. I always tell people, 5 millions years of genetics tells us plenty about ourselves, but although most root causes are the same, I tell people to find a man's (not subconscious) motivation for his actions, and that is the #1 place to start no matter what your objective is.
Mayweather's motive is to collect as much money, while taking the minimal risks. Manny inside the ring has deep desire. Even Manny after the 2nd fight with JMM said he never wanted to fight Marquez again.
DESIRE... inside and outside the ring goes to Juan Manuel Marquez. He will fight anyone, and fights 100% effort always, and doesn't hesitate with risks as he has such a high self-confidence in himself... and it shows!
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#6
Posted: 3/24/2012 1:27:26 AM
thesoulpurpose: You being a boxing historian would know this quite well (we are talking second hand information, but it's the best we have). I have several sentences I copied from Wiki. Many people that knew Robinson said overtime the Doyle death had a huge impact on how Robinson fought, although it doesn't appear to show in the footage. They said he was so dominate, they even using caution for other fighters, it barely showed. What is your opinion on the event?

{In June 1947, after four non-title bouts, Robinson was scheduled to defend his title for the first time in a bout against Jimmy Doyle. Before that fight, Robinson had a dream that he was going to accidentally kill Doyle in the ring. As a result, he decided to pull out of the fight. However, apriest and a minister convinced him to go ahead with the bout. His foe, however, died from the injuries he sustained.  Robinson said that the impact of Doyle's death was "very trying."
On the night of June 25, Robinson dominated Doyle and scored a decisive knockout in the eighth round that knocked Doyle unconscious and resulted in Doyle's death that night.}
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#7
Posted: 3/24/2012 3:23:44 AM
BTW - FACTS many might be unaware! After the 9th round, the scorecards showed a DRAW!!!!

Larry Rozadilla 82-88 | Ken Morita 87-86 | Masakazu Uchida 86-86
Besides for the 8th round knockdown, which many could have scored 10-9 for Tyson as Douglas was winning the entire round dominantly (as Tyson was very ring weary and looked dis-oriented) until the late round uppercut.

I know I add this on all the posts, but I like to make sure NEWBIES and VETERANS, remember when betting favorites (anything over -200), be certain that your fighter can win the fight without the scorecards, otherwise rethink that wager.

I made a very BIG wager at several different odds (averaging just around -200) on Paul Williams to beat Winky Wright. I even did a win by decision and got a switch in the manner I was now getting the better.
My though on this fight was very basic. Winky being a master of defense and a ring general was at a major disadvantage against Williams. I felt Winky wins (assuming the rare fairness, that judges would be accurate) 9 out of 10 bouts if they were to fight under identical conditions. Actually I felt more than that average, but that was my low-ball estimate. Now, using basic handicapping rule of thumb, Williams would be -900 and even at -450, I would be at an +EV at 200%. Now, mathematically this would be considered a great value and crazy to pass on. The reality factor is such... they are fighting once, not 10, 100 or 1,000,000 fights. As we know, anything can happen in a fight, then you also have to pray that judges were somewhat decent and also honest... a rare combination these days. In the past fighters had to take dives and what not, and make the men with the power a nice payday, then they would get a title shot (just like movie "Raging Bull"). These days promoters and other silent partners, get better than Nostradamus, they get judges to see the fight how they want, and the judges keep their jobs and get early Christmas presents in the name of a company care for a company they were part-time and they enjoy a 2012 Mercedes-Benz SL-Class ($120k) and it's in the company name, so they get to drive it for work.
Williams-Wright: My analysis was as such: Williams was an inside fighter better than outside (despite his reach). His output he maintained for 12 rounds. So, with constant punches, Winky would never be able to adjust to the work-rate and lose almost every second of every round. This scenario I didn't mind laying -200 (-160 to -230) on average as I used several sources to max my investment! The one reason I didn't have as much concern for judges was such that even the compubox would have at least a 2-1 ratio landed and even a higher. I'm not a major fan of compubox, but at certain levels, it shows a lot on certain bouts.
Wright-Williams: Landed the same percent in jab and power. The final numbers were such:
before that another thing... Williams landed more punches the last round than any other round and at his 3rd highest percentage connect rate. It was this factor I didn't mind laying -200 or more without the fear of being cheated. Also, Wright appeared to be on retirement any day, as Williams was 27 and finally getting general public notice. So if any judges were in for a fix, it would be towards Williams. Winky lost to Hopkins prior, and at the time people felt Hopkins after losing twice to Taylor and just beat Tarver (who many felt was all done). Winky was a small favor to Hopkins, and after the loss (people felt at 42, Hopkins couldn't continue to dominate or even be competitive... WRONG!).
COMPUBOX:
Wright 116/511 at 23%
Williams 247/1086 at 23%

That was a very rare time I bet -200 or so, at a HUGE amount. All the criteria for my standard were in place, so it was time to pull the trigger for a wager size of WMD!

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