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Author: [General Discussion] Topic: 9/11 conspiracy theory in 5 minutes
MoneySRH
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#576
Posted: 6/16/2012 6:45:19 PM
GROUNDED The supersonic jets were flown no faster than WWII prop-driven fighters. But it hardly mattered. Sitting on the Andrews ramp just 10 miles away, were two fully armed and fueled supersonic interceptors tasked with protecting the capitol from airborne terrorist threats on 15 minutes' notice!
 
Isn't it about time someone asked why those routinely launched Andrews interceptors were "stood down" as Flight 77 bored in toward the headquarters they were supposed to protect? [San Diego Union-Tribune Sept12/01
 
In the most heavily armed nation on Earth, at least two-dozen air force installations were within fast flying time of the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Does anyone else wonder why none of those aircraft were ordered launched - or why none of the armed fighters on training flights or patrolling Air Defense Intercept Zones just off the Atlantic Coast were diverted to intercept four commandeered airliners until after the Pentagon was struck ö one-hour and 18 minutes after Flight 11 was hijacked? [www.af.mil/sites/alphabetical.shtml#a]
 
According to NORAD, the F-16s from Langley were still "12 minutes/105 miles" away when the big Boeing they were "chasing" soared past the White House and the Andrews runways. Allegedly flown by an incompetent Egyptian flight student who couldn't solo a Cessna, the 757 peeled off and piled into the Pentagon after an abrupt dive and pull-up that left veteran pilots agape. [San Diego Union-Tribune Sept12/01; NBC Nightly News Sept11/01; All Fall Down]
 
Immediately after the Pentagon was hit, the Andrews alert jets were launched to guard empty skies. [Mirror Nov13/03]
 
 
ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH Responding to questions from a Senate confirmation committee two days after this suspicious fiasco, the Joint Chief's acting air defense chief on Sept. 11 said he was in a meeting while all hell was breaking loose in his sector.
 
Air Force Gen. Richard Myers had not let a TV report about a small plane hitting the World Trade Center interrupt his routine. As jumbo jetliners kept diving into buildings, apparently no one thought to inform the acting commander of U.S. air defenses that his country was under attack. Myers said he came out of his meeting just as the Pentagon was hit.
 
Asked repeatedly when the brass were first informed of the emergency, and when interceptors were scrambled, Myers repeated a muddled mantra six times, saying ""I'll have to get back to you on that." [www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2001/n10232001_200110236.html]
 
Instead of being court-martialed like the luckless commanders defending Pearl Harbor, or even reprimanded, General Myers was awarded command of the entire U.S. military as new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Bush publicly commended the air force general for his "calm manner, sound judgment, and his clear strategic thinking." [White House press release Oct15/01]
 
As this bizarre and possibly treasonous story goes to press, the FAA has refused to disclose documents relating to when that agency notified U.S. air defenses about the four hijacked airliners. A second subpoena served on the Pentagon by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States has been similarly unsuccessful in attaining records concerning whether NORAD responded quickly enough in dispatching interceptors on Sept. 11. [Washington Post Nov8/03]
 
Instead of fingering air traffic controllers for not following procedures, these documents could show that the FAA did follow its own Standard Intercept Procedures and notify NORAD within a few minutes of each hijacking ö which would leave the Air Force with even more explaining to do.
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#577
Posted: 6/16/2012 6:47:30 PM
To be continued...it's Saturday night
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#578
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:02:15 PM
You're posting one or two sentences from entire articles.  Holy out of context batman.  Is that all you plan on doing is copying and pasting?  Google Norad stand down, copy, paste.  Please post a fact, comment on it and wait for a response. 

"Instead of being court-martialed like the luckless commanders defending Pearl Harbor, or even reprimanded, General Myers was awarded command of the entire U.S. military as new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Bush publicly commended the air force general for his "calm manner, sound judgment, and his clear strategic thinking." [White House press release Oct15/01]"

That proves??

Why not say where this below comes from?

GROUNDED The supersonic jets were flown no faster than WWII prop-driven fighters. But it hardly mattered. Sitting on the Andrews ramp just 10 miles away, were two fully armed and fueled supersonic interceptors tasked with protecting the capitol from airborne terrorist threats on 15 minutes' notice!

The quotes are right about one thing...our defense for something like this was inept.  Possibly because it never happened before.  Your first question was why werent jets scrambled.  They were.  You have also been given plenty showing why the flights werent intercepted.  Random quotes from unknown sources do not prove otherwise.  Show me why they should have been intercepted.  Try using your own thoughts


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#579
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:07:32 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by tpjw44:

You're posting one or two sentences from entire articles.  Holy out of context batman.  Is that all you plan on doing is copying and pasting?  Google Norad stand down, copy, paste.  Please post a fact, comment on it and wait for a response. 

"Instead of being court-martialed like the luckless commanders defending Pearl Harbor, or even reprimanded, General Myers was awarded command of the entire U.S. military as new chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Bush publicly commended the air force general for his "calm manner, sound judgment, and his clear strategic thinking." [White House press release Oct15/01]"

That proves??

Why not say where this below comes from?

GROUNDED The supersonic jets were flown no faster than WWII prop-driven fighters. But it hardly mattered. Sitting on the Andrews ramp just 10 miles away, were two fully armed and fueled supersonic interceptors tasked with protecting the capitol from airborne terrorist threats on 15 minutes' notice!

The quotes are right about one thing...our defense for something like this was inept.  Possibly because it never happened before.  Your first question was why werent jets scrambled.  They were.  You have also been given plenty showing why the flights werent intercepted.  Random quotes from unknown sources do not prove otherwise.  Show me why they should have been intercepted.  Try using your own thoughts




selective criticism at its best... you say this to Money but you dont question the person who has been along your side in the last pages BMA for being by far the worst copy and paste artist on the site.. 
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#580
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:09:42 PM
I came in this thread rather late.  I'm not capable of speaking about what others have been doing
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#581
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:11:31 PM
coolavatars.net and thats the one you choose. (starts to say something then just stops completely).... good luck in your quest 
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#582
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:18:00 PM
In the United States, NORAD is divided into three sectors. On 9/11, all the hijacked aircraft were in NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (also known as NEADS), which is based in Rome, New York. That morning NEADS could call on two alert sites, each with one pair of ready fighters: Otis Air National Guard Base in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Virginia.100 Other facilities, not on "alert," would need time to arm the fighters and organize crews.
#########
In sum, the protocols in place on 9/11 for the FAA and NORAD to respond to a hijacking presumed that

    the hijacked aircraft would be readily identifiable and would not attempt to disappear;
    there would be time to address the problem through the appropriate FAA and NORAD chains of command; and
    hijacking would take the traditional form: that is, it would not be a suicide hijacking designed to convert the aircraft into a guided missile.

On the morning of 9/11, the existing protocol was unsuited in every respect for what was about to happen.

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#583
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:19:08 PM
American Airlines Flight 11
(AA 11)
Boston to Los Angeles

7:59     Takeoff    

8:14     Last routine radio communication; likely takeover 
  
8:19     Flight attendant notifies AA of hijacking

8:21     Transponder is turned off    

8:23     AA attempts to contact the cockpit    

8:25     Boston Center aware of hijacking    

8:38     Boston Center notifies NEADS of hijacking    

8:46     NEADS scrambles Otis fighter jets in search of AA 11   
 
8:46:40     AA 11 crashes into 1 WTC (North Tower)    

8:53     Otis fighter jets airborne    

9:16     AA headquarters aware that Flight 11 has crashed into WTC

9:21     Boston Center advises NEADS that AA 11 is airborne
heading for Washington

9:24     NEADS scrambles Langley fighter jets in search of AA 11

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Posted: 6/16/2012 7:20:11 PM
United Airlines Flight 175
(UA 175)
Boston to Los Angeles

8:14     Takeoff

8:42     Last radio communication

8:42-8:46     Likely takeover

8:47     Transponder code changes

 8:52     Flight attendant notifies UA of hijacking

 8:54     UA attempts to contact the cockpit

 8:55     New York Center suspects hijacking

 9:03:11 Flight 175 crashes into 2 WTC (South Tower)

 9:15     New York Center advises NEADS that UA 175 was the second aircraft crashed into WTC

 9:20     UA headquarters aware that Flight 175 had crashed into WTC

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#585
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:21:07 PM
American Airlines Flight 77
(AA 77)
Washington,D.C., to Los Angeles


8:20     Takeoff

8:51     Last routine radio communication

8:51-8:54     Likely takeover

8:54     Flight 77 makes unauthorized turn to south

8:56     Transponder is turned off

9:05     AA headquarters aware that Flight 77 is hijacked

9:25     Herndon Command Center orders nationwide ground stop  
 
9:32     Dulles tower observes radar of fast-moving aircraft (later identified as AA 77)

9:34     FAA advises NEADS that AA 77 is missing

9:37:46     AA 77 crashes into the Pentagon

10:30     AA headquarters confirms Flight 77 crash into Pentagon

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#586
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:22:06 PM
United Airlines Flight 93
(UA 93)
Newark to San Francisco

8:42     Takeoff

9:24     Flight 93 receives warning from UA about possible cockpit intrusion

9:27     Last routine radio communication

9:28     Likely takeover

9:34     Herndon Command Center advises FAA headquarters that UA 93 is hijacked

9:36     Flight attendant notifies UA of hijacking;UA attempts to contact the cockpit

9:41     Transponder is turned off

9:57     Passenger revolt begins

10:03:11     Flight 93 crashes in field in Shanksville, PA

10:07     Cleveland Center advises NEADS of UA 93 hijacking

10:15     UA headquarters aware that Flight 93 has crashed in PA;
Washington Center advises NEADS that Flight 93 has crashed in PA
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#587
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:27:56 PM
This is important, in the understanding


On 9/11, the terrorists turned off the transponders on three of the four hijacked aircraft.


 With its transponder off, it is possible, though more difficult, to track an aircraft by its primary radar returns.

 But unlike transponder data, primary radar returns do not show the aircraft's identity and altitude.

 Controllers at centers rely so heavily on transponder signals that they usually do not display primary radar returns on their radar scopes.

 But they can change the configuration of their scopes so they can see primary radar returns.

 They did this on 9/11 when the transponder signals for three of the aircraft disappeared
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#588
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:28:41 PM
And here is a good example why copying and pasting one or two sentences from an entire article is both not fair and a misrepresentation. 

"In that legendary intercept, a fighter jet out of Tyndall, Florida was diverted from a training flight to escort the Lear, whose pilot had become incapacitated, trapping Stewart in the stratosphere. An F-16 was reportedly sitting off the left wingtip of Payne's pilotless business jet within 19 minutes of the FAA alert. [ABC News Oct25/99]"

It's certainly true that there were initial media reports suggesting Air Force jets intercepted the plane only around 20 minutes after contact was lost. But this isn't actually what happened...

Now this is from the NTSB accident report.  The report can be read in its entirety here http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/AAB0001.html

"At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response".

Notice the time change from EDT to CDT?  So the lack of contact was first noticed at around 09:34, accepted as a loss of contact at 9:44, and the fighter didn't get to within 2000 feet of Stewart’s jet until 10:54. That's well over an hour between the controllers realizing there’s a problem, to intercept taking place.  Not 19 minutes as the snipet from above would lead you to believe. 

So why do you believe intercepting aircraft prior to the awful events on Sept 11 was routine and capable of being done so quickly?  I'll ask you again to cite something specific and in it's entirety...or at least give me a link to read what you are pulling information from. 




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#589
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:34:56 PM
To add to what BMA posted and to address the Andrews AFB question...

The 9/11 Commission provided a simple answer: Andrews was not a NORAD base.

"All the hijacked aircraft were in one of NORAD’s Continental U.S. sectors, the Northeast Air Defense Sector (also known as NEADS). NEADS is based in Rome, New York. On 9/11, it could call on two alert sites, each with one pair of ready fighters. These were the 2 Otis Air National Guard Base in Cape Cod, Massachusetts and Langley Air Force Base in Langley, Virginia.
9/11 Commission Staff Statement 17"

The above if from the actual 09/11 Commission Report.  I am referencing my paper copy so I have no link to provide. 

The following from Airman (Air Force official magazine).  Whole article can be read here http://web.archive.org/web/20000303153733/http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1299/home2.htm

"
The Air National Guard exclusively performs the air sovereignty mission in the continental United States, and those units fall under the control of the 1st Air Force based at Tyndall. The Guard maintains seven alert sites with 14 fighters and pilots on call around the clock. Besides Homestead, alert birds also sit armed and ready at Tyndall; Langley AFB, Va.; Otis Air National Guard Base, Mass.; Portland International Airport, Ore.; March ARB, Calif.; and Ellington Field, Texas."


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#590
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:36:03 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by MoneySRH:

Yeah that's where I got most of the info...so what?




Because in that other thread by Dogunder you said and I quote

 " I posted 41 things 911 believers don't want to hear. You should check it out. It will shut these guys up for you. I put in a lot of time to put all 41 things together. "

You put in a lot of time to put them altogether? By copy and pasting them? You made it sound like you came up with all of this garbage yourself.

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#591
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:38:51 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by tpjw44:

And here is a good example why copying and pasting one or two sentences from an entire article is both not fair and a misrepresentation. 

"In that legendary intercept, a fighter jet out of Tyndall, Florida was diverted from a training flight to escort the Lear, whose pilot had become incapacitated, trapping Stewart in the stratosphere. An F-16 was reportedly sitting off the left wingtip of Payne's pilotless business jet within 19 minutes of the FAA alert. [ABC News Oct25/99]"

It's certainly true that there were initial media reports suggesting Air Force jets intercepted the plane only around 20 minutes after contact was lost. But this isn't actually what happened...

Now this is from the NTSB accident report.  The report can be read in its entirety here http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/AAB0001.html

"At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response".

Notice the time change from EDT to CDT?  So the lack of contact was first noticed at around 09:34, accepted as a loss of contact at 9:44, and the fighter didn't get to within 2000 feet of Stewart’s jet until 10:54. That's well over an hour between the controllers realizing there’s a problem, to intercept taking place.  Not 19 minutes as the snipet from above would lead you to believe. 

So why do you believe intercepting aircraft prior to the awful events on Sept 11 was routine and capable of being done so quickly?  I'll ask you again to cite something specific and in it's entirety...or at least give me a link to read what you are pulling information from. 






Agree


Interagency Collaboration. The FAA and NORAD had developed protocols for working together in the event of a hijacking. As they existed on 9/11, the protocols for the FAA to obtain military assistance from NORAD required multiple levels of notification and approval at the highest levels of government.


The protocols did not contemplate an intercept. They assumed the fighter escort would be discreet, "vectored to a position five miles directly behind the hijacked aircraft," where it could perform its mission to monitor the aircraft's flight path.



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#592
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:41:50 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Slovak:



Because in that other thread by Dogunder you said and I quote

 " I posted 41 things 911 believers don't want to hear. You should check it out. It will shut these guys up for you. I put in a lot of time to put all 41 things together. "

You put in a lot of time to put them altogether? By copy and pasting them? You made it sound like you came up with all of this garbage yourself.



Money asking the same questions, that have already been answered regarding scrambling of airplanes, even after he admitted he got it wrong is absolutely bizarre.
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#593
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:42:21 PM
Ahhhhh see this stuff isn't hard to find if you want to find answers.  Some more info regarding Andrews for you...disproving some of your vague quotes.  I thought it unlikely that Andrews would keep two squadrons of fighters on permanent 15 minute alert. And sure enough, Google reveals it doesn't mean "available to launch within minutes" on an emergency intercept. It's a far more general term, and rather more obviously just means "ready for combat"

Read it ALL here http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123079128

12/12/2007 - LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. (ACCNS) -- F-22 Raptors here reached Full Operational Capability Dec. 12, according to Gen. John D.W. Corley, Air Combat Command commander.

The announcement officially makes Langley's F-22 squadrons combat ready.

"After years of collaborative effort, a key milestone for the F-22A has been reached," said General Corley. "The integrated 1st Fighter Wing and 192nd Fighter Wing team at Langley possess sufficient Raptors, equipment and trained Airmen to provide Air Dominance for the Joint Force for many years to come."

FOC for the F-22 means the aircraft are now ready for global engagement, said Lt. Col. Mark Hansen, Air Combat Command F-22 Integration Officer.

"Crews are now [fully] organized, trained, equipped and ready for the joint fight."

Since the F-22s reached Initial Operational Capability two years ago, the 1st Fighter Wing and the Air National Guard's 192nd Fighter Wing have dedicated time and resources into finding how to best use and maintain the world's most advanced fighter. The fighter has deployed and trained across the world to define and refine its capabilities and tactics.

The 1st FW has been training for the wartime mission since the F-22 went IOC, said Brig. Gen. Mark A. Barrett, 1st FW commander. Langley's Raptors were declared IOC in December 2005, making them capable of some combat operations such as homeland defense.

"We are available to be tasked at any time, to do whatever our nation requires," General Barrett said. The 1st and 192nd Fighter Wings will continue to baseline the F-22 so the rest of the Raptor fleet can learn from their experience, he added.

Even though Team Langley has reached the Raptor's FOC, they will continue training to get better every day, said Col. Jay Pearsall, 192nd FW commander.

"There's no change in training," he said. "Everybody is working hard, and we're ready to go to war, (on) deployments or on exercises."

The F-22 Raptor's unique combination of stealth, speed, agility, precision and situational awareness, combined with air-to-air and air-to-ground combat capabilities, gives the Raptor numerous advantages over any potential adversary.


They can do "homeland defense" and doubtless they have pilots around most of the time, but there's nothing here about having fighters on permanent 15-minute alert because that isn't what "combat-ready" means. Again, it's important to read everything and not take quotes and snippets of articles out of context.  I was a conspiracy theory nut for approximately a week until I decided to do my own research.  DO NOT stop with one opinion and look for supporting evidence for just that.  You need to question and search for corroborating FACT. Have a good night.
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#594
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:43:20 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by Iw1nBets:

coolavatars.net and thats the one you choose. (starts to say something then just stops completely).... good luck in your quest 


I like Gizmo...cut me some slack jack
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#595
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:44:07 PM
upping post count by pasting the same things you already posted in other threads = All-Star status 
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#596
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:44:50 PM
QUOTE Originally Posted by tpjw44:



I like Gizmo...cut me some slack jack


you actually seem pretty damn respectable.. im just fuckin with you.. if you would of seen some of my past avatars lol 
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#597
Posted: 6/16/2012 7:45:03 PM

NORAD Mission and Structure.

NORAD is a binational command established in 1958 between the United States and Canada

. Its mission was, and is, to defend the airspace of North America and protect the continent.

That mission does not distinguish between internal and external threats; but because NORAD was created to counter the Soviet threat, it came to define its job as defending against external attacks.

The threat of Soviet bombers diminished significantly as the Cold War ended, and the number of NORAD alert sites was reduced from its Cold War high of 26.

Some within the Pentagon argued in the 1990s that the alert sites should be eliminated entirely.

In an effort to preserve their mission, members of the air defense community advocated the importance of air sovereignty against emerging "asymmetric threats" to the United States: drug smuggling, "non-state and state-sponsored terrorists," and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile technology.

NORAD perceived the dominant threat to be from cruise missiles. Other threats were identified during the late 1990s, including terrorists' use of aircraft as weapons.

Exercises were conducted to counter this threat, but they were not based on actual intelligence.

In most instances, the main concern was the use of such aircraft to deliver weapons of mass destruction.

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#598
Posted: 6/17/2012 11:34:35 AM
QUOTE Originally Posted by tpjw44:



I like Gizmo...cut me some slack jack
So do i

I should have said I don’t believe the most powerful, intelligent military and the world's greatest super-power with the most powerful, superior and advanced military aircraft in the world (with the most advanced radar system in the world and can travel almost 2000 miles per hour) was not able to stop a single commercial plane with advanced notice. It is standard operating procedure to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times. The National Military Command Center monitors every inch of airspace. I stand by posts 537, 570, 574, and 575. They were prepared for this situation and all I see is excuses. I’m not naive enough to except the excuses you 911 believers present and not naive enough to swallow the governments bullshit.

Lets move on to the 911 commission, NIST, bush and cheney, and how the US government had several warnings.

I'll post links instead of just copying and pasting

1. Bush was warned Bin Laden determined to strike in US, 36 days before 911

2. Bush told officials to back off before 911

3. Bush was warned Bin Laden wanted to hijack planes

4. NORAD had drills of planes as weapons

5. US intelligence officials had several warnings

6. No link for this one. President Bush and Vice President Cheney agreed to testify only under several conditions:

They would be allowed to testify jointly.
They would not be required to take an oath before testifying.
The testimony would not be recorded electronically or transcribed, and that the only record would be notes taken by one of the commission staffers.
These notes would not be made public.

7. The 911 commission was set up to fail

8. NIST cover up

9. Gaps and inconsistencies reveal fundamental flaws in NIST's analyses
Please try to respond in one single post

I can’t wait to see what your excuses will be for these things…
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#599
Posted: 6/17/2012 11:48:02 AM

Flight 77: Some Eyewitness Accounts

"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

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Joined: Jul 2011
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Posted: 6/17/2012 11:48:57 AM
"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001
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